BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Vhanja · March 1, 2015 9:32 pm

I personally would have preferred her not being in the show. To me, the show is about the two boys in 221B. I don't think the dynamic of having a wife and child belongs there.

mrshouse · March 1, 2015 9:33 pm

I see it a bit differently, because, true, some of the canon stories started along the lines of " Watson, we haven't seen each other in ages" but actually that is never important for the story telling. It is just a couple of sentences but hardly essential for the story.
So since the chemistry between Sherlock and John is heart, brain, liver and kidney of this particular adaptation I don't see the need to explain John's absence.

SusiGo · March 1, 2015 9:34 pm

Vhanja: I agree, the way Mary is presented has changed the dynamic from series 1/2 as well as compared to Canon. And not in a favourable way, if you ask me. Because in Canon you get the feeling that after Watson has married ACD lost any interest in Mary and mentioned her only in passing. She was never involved in any cases after Sign of Four, not to mention not trying to kill Holmes.

Last edited by SusiGo (March 1, 2015 9:35 pm)

mrshouse · March 1, 2015 9:35 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I personally would have preferred her not being in the show. To me, the show is about the two boys in 221B. I don't think the dynamic of having a wife and child belongs there.

Agree wholeheartedly, Vhanja. Not change for the sake of change or female protagonists for the sake of it.

SolarSystem · March 1, 2015 9:39 pm

Vhanja, Susi, my thoughts exactly. I don't think that Mary was needed to give the writers more or better opportunities, I think they did a brilliant job with just Sherlock and John together in S1/2, and I'm sure they would have been able to do an equally brilliant job for several more seasons without Mary. They do have several supporting characters which could take over a more important part for an episode if they feel that they need more than Sherlock and John from time to time.

mrshouse · March 1, 2015 9:40 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Vhanja, Susi, my thoughts exactly. I don't think that Mary was needed to give the writers more or better opportunities, I think they did a brilliant job with just Sherlock and John together in S1/2, and I'm sure they would have been able to do an equally brilliant job for several more seasons without Mary. They do have several supporting characters which could take over a more important part for an episode if they feel that they need more than Sherlock and John from time to time.

This ^^

gently69 · March 1, 2015 9:46 pm

Well, I didn't "need" Mary in the show but nevertheless I think she is a stimulating factor. In my opinion Moftiss expected the controversies about her but I am not sure if they really calculated the dimensions

Vhanja · March 1, 2015 9:46 pm

I don't mind her story arch being included as long as it's short. And I don't get her being pregnant to fit with that. How can they not have written themselves into a corner now? I'm very curious as to where they are going with this.

mrshouse · March 1, 2015 9:49 pm

Maybe so, gently. But I think they knew they would create diversions, which leads me back to my post that with the people who hate Mary in the wedding preparations Mofftiss shows the fans their ugly faces.

Schmiezi · March 1, 2015 10:01 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Vhanja, Susi, my thoughts exactly. I don't think that Mary was needed to give the writers more or better opportunities, I think they did a brilliant job with just Sherlock and John together in S1/2, and I'm sure they would have been able to do an equally brilliant job for several more seasons without Mary. They do have several supporting characters which could take over a more important part for an episode if they feel that they need more than Sherlock and John from time to time.

I agree with you, Solar (and Vhanja and Susi and ...).The writers didn't need to include Mary. Yet they did. That only makes me wonder why (again).

Of course you can say that Mary appears in canon and that the writers needed to include her. But IMO that agrument is underestimating the creativity of the writers who turned Mrs Hudson into an exotic dancer and Irene Adler into a dominatrix and twist the whole Baskerville story the way they did. Those Writers don't NEED to do anything.

They wanted to bring her on. But why?

I think they wanted to drive John and Sherlock apart in S3 so they can reunite them and turn their relationship into something more intense afterwards. (Because really, first driving them apart and then reunite them to re-establish status quo makes no sense from a narrating point of view.)

They use Mary to do that and it works perfectly IMO.

Last edited by Schmiezi (March 1, 2015 10:02 pm)

SusiGo · March 1, 2015 10:06 pm

Yes, regarding the narrative arc it was quite clever to use Mary as a means of separating Sherlock and John only to re-unite them fully in series 4 or 5 (not that late, I hope).

Vhanja · March 1, 2015 10:06 pm

That makes sense, Schmiezi. I would say the fall was what drove them apart, but including Mary just widened the gap.

Last edited by Vhanja (March 1, 2015 10:07 pm)

Harriet · March 1, 2015 10:10 pm

Thanks, Schmiezi. And this is what I said earlier. A catalyst.

Last edited by Harriet (March 1, 2015 10:11 pm)

SolarSystem · March 1, 2015 10:44 pm

Vhanja wrote:
That makes sense, Schmiezi. I would say the fall was what drove them apart, but including Mary just widened the gap.

I don't mean to be nitpicking here, but let me just say: I think it wasn't the fall that drove them apart but the two years following the fall. I think the fall itself brought them even closer together in a way, because right afterwards John came to realize how much he had lost and what Sherlock really meant to him. And I'm convinced the same thing goes for Sherlock, when he sees and hears John at his grave and even before, when he's on the roof, saying goodbye to John.
So those two years drove them apart and yes, Mary keeps them apart, not just in a spacial sense.

Vhanja · March 2, 2015 7:50 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
That makes sense, Schmiezi. I would say the fall was what drove them apart, but including Mary just widened the gap.
I don't mean to be nitpicking here, but let me just say: I think it wasn't the fall that drove them apart but the two years following the fall. I think the fall itself brought them even closer together in a way, because right afterwards John came to realize how much he had lost and what Sherlock really meant to him. And I'm convinced the same thing goes for Sherlock, when he sees and hears John at his grave and even before, when he's on the roof, saying goodbye to John.
So those two years drove them apart and yes, Mary keeps them apart, not just in a spacial sense.

Yes, that was what I meant.

mrshouse · March 2, 2015 8:01 am

I think the writers chose a very tense and not-so-relaxed undertone for the whole of s3 when it comes to the relationship of the men. They could have chosen to make it much more light-hearted after an initial row and just go back to business for the rest. Also a threesome could have been more lighthearted, yet it never is. And if you look at the scenes where Sherlock and John are alone they just physically hurt. So why drag this through the whole season? So, as I see it, the presence of Mary and that the whole of HLV is her story it is a marker for me that the relationship has not only changed -that is inevitable after the fall- but still has not found a proper new level, which makes them feel comfortable again.

Vhanja · March 2, 2015 8:09 am

mrshouse wrote:
I think the writers chose a very tense and not-so-relaxed undertone for the whole of s3 when it comes to the relationship of the men. They could have chosen to make it much more light-hearted after an initial row and just go back to business for the rest. Also a threesome could have been more lighthearted, yet it never is. And if you look at the scenes where Sherlock and John are alone they just physically hurt. So why drag this through the whole season? So, as I see it, the presence of Mary and that the whole of HLV is her story it is a marker for me that the relationship has not only changed -that is inevitable after the fall- but still has not found a proper new level, which makes them feel comfortable again.

I agree with this, it's the same feel I get from S3. Which makes the Tarmac scene even more sad for me - for them, it might be the last time they see each other. But they are already so far apart that they have no idea what to say anymore.

mrshouse · March 2, 2015 8:15 am

God, yes, the tarmac.... Definitely the emotional cliffhanger here...

Vhanja · March 2, 2015 8:28 am

Swanpride wrote:
But I think it would be a mistake to consider Mary just as a stumbling stone. She is an interesting character in her own right.

She is, and I fear she might be in the show for quite a while. I think she is an interesting character, but she's not someone I feel belong in the Sherlock series for too long, because that changes the dynamics of Sherlock and John. I really, really don't want the show to turn into John visiting Sherlock at 221B when he can find the time between grocery shopping and changing napkins.

mrshouse · March 2, 2015 8:31 am

Vhanja wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
But I think it would be a mistake to consider Mary just as a stumbling stone. She is an interesting character in her own right.
She is, and I fear she might be in the show for quite a while. I think she is an interesting character, but she's not someone I feel belong in the Sherlock series for too long, because that changes the dynamics of Sherlock and John. I really, really don't want the show to turn into John visiting Sherlock at 221B when he can find the time between grocery shopping and changing napkins.

Where can I sign this?