Vhanja wrote:

Zatoichi wrote:

Yes, I'm totally with you on this.. His life just fell apart around him, and they team up to tell him he chose her and shouldn't be surprised now. That already rubs me the wrong way in the beginning of TEH, when both tell him he's overreacting, after everything he went through. Maybe this is supposed to give a lighthearted note to something that'd be overly grave otherwise.. enable them to continue their relationship on the same terms as before because John kind of agrees that they have a point.. In a way continue his laid-back reactions to being drugged, ordered around and brought into mortal danger because of his connection to Sherlock? Oh alright, I'm furious but then again this is what I like and I just had the best time of my life? Probably the show could never have worked without this pattern of behaviour, and we shouldn't be surprised that his reaction to Mary's betrayal also conforms to this? (Trying to convince myself here ;p)

It makes me really happy to have someone else see this as well. John's emotional reactions have always been just handwaved away by Sherlock, and now also by Mary. They are sort of ganging up on him, telling him that he is overreacting and that he chose this. 

Yes, in this regard Sherlock has a point when he says that the woman he fell in love with confirms to a pattern.. obviously John doesn´t mind too much to have his feelings handwaved away and being slightly mocked by his significant others. He could have noticed that in Mary, if not the assassin-part..

This is not to say I blame Sherlock in this scene, he doesn´t have much time and needs to reconcile them quickly.. I don´t think he willingly tries to belittle or manipulate John. Just that I really feel for John here nevertheless, because it´s such a tough situation for him. They are all horribly suffering here.. (That doesn´t mean I subscribe in any way to the "Saint John" interpretation, or see John as the eternal victim who can´t do wrong.. quite the contrary in fact. Still Mary "wasn´t supposed to be like that", and I in no way buy that John sensed something "dangerous" or psychopathic in Mary and chose her because of that. Why Sherlock still says it I don´t know, maybe because he knew that it would cool him down enough to make him sit down and listen for a while? Maybe because he thought it would make him cross the wild sea of rage until he reaches the calm waters on the other side? ^^)

And thinking about it, what Sherlock says isn't that bad.   He's just saying that John is drawn to certain types of people and situations.  That's something John already knows.   So subconsciously, he was drawn to Mary because she conformed to that pattern.  I mean, he's drawn to Sherlock from the moment he meets him, I think, before he knows, consciously, what Sherlock has to offer him.   It's possible that he sensed something about Mary and that's why he fell for her so quickly.  

I think what Mary says is worse - she suggests that he somehow knew she was an assassin and married her because of it.   That's patently untrue.  (And I don't like the way she says it either!). 

I agree, but if he WAS drawn to Sherlock even when he had very little information about him.  So I can believe that he was drawn to Mary because he sensed something about her, even if he thought he was choosing her because she was very normal.  What I don't believe is that he was drawn to her because he thought she could be a killer - I think if he'd known the truth at the beginning, he wouldn't have let himself fall for her.   With Sherlock, it's different - even though people are suggesting he's a potential killer, John doesn't really believe it (I don't think so, anyway).

I thought there was some sort of chemistry right from when they met, even before going to the crime scene.  But maybe it's my imagination because I knew from the beginning that they were going to be together. 

Last edited by Liberty (February 23, 2015 7:38 am)

You all have good points here and almost every interpretation seems plausible.

Here is my outlook on things: when Sherlock says the words "you chose her", he obviously does it with pain and neither his face nor tone suggest he is riling out John pointlessly - for a dying person that would be a very foolish endeavour. Those words aren´t that hurtful or bellitling anyway. Is it possible that Sherlock is just pointing out to John that now - after he chose Mary and made her his wife - he kind of took partial responsibility for her fate and instead of arguing, he should face the dire situation as it is and stop pondering about why she turned up an assassin (something neither of them could prevent nor influence)? John was hurt by his remark, but that was probably misunderstanding of Sherlock words?

What puzzles me about John is his inexplicable pasivity considering the USB stick he got from Mary. I think the stick could make a difference in a situation they were in. John could maybe extract from it the names of Mary´s former colleagues - enemies that were after her - contact them with ifake nformations concerning Mary and trap and neutralise them, possibly even with the help of Mycroft. If he didn´t want to know a thing about Mary´s past, he could ask Sherlock to read the stick and extract the names from it. They would have at least some chance to prepare for a danger facing them. But John apparently remains inactive - for months - and then burns the stick uselessly (I presume he dealt with the stick like that, because Sherlock´s self-sacrifice was still needed at the end of HLV, so obviously John didn´t deal with the danger beforehand). Which is very strange. 

Interesting note: in canon, the Agra treasure box was empty. I guess that's why many people suspect the stick to be empty too.

Not sure if the stick was empty or not, but I am convinced that Sherlock did look at it.

Yes, the treasure in the canon too was obtained through vile murder - maybe that´s one more reason why canonical Mary was happy to get rid of it.

I think the best clue to Marys past was the cyrillic AGRA / АГРА files
In Magnussens mindpalace.
Very Von Bork.(spy in hlb)...and they looked very much like the files Mycroft had on asassins in TRF assuming they are based on something he actually saw...and maybe thats the info on the memory stick.
This gives Mary an eastern europe connection...amusing considering the - Sherlock was there tracking a Moriarty connection @the start...and the mission to eastern europe that would see Sherlock dead In six months@the end.

Looks like he is more interested in solving cases with Sherlock than in planning his own wedding. 

Only five or six names is still quite a lot of hateful guests, I suppose.