nakahara wrote:

To be honest, I am bit puzzled why John asked Sherlock "Why is she like that? She isn´t supposed to be like..."

There´s absolutely no better thing Sherlock could say as an answer to the first question because - he was not responsible for how Mary turned out to be either.

As to the second John´s sentence, it was actually quite insulting - to point out that Mary wasn´t supposed to be like Sherlock. Your best friend is a leper, John?

No, I think it is quite understandable why he wouldn't want Mary to be like Sherlock. He wants normalcy, he wants something stable, something that won't remind him of Sherlock. And as SusiGo mentioned, now that Sherlock is back he has both - the danger and the stability. Or so he thinks. 

What he says isn't meant to hurt - HE is the one hurting here. That phrase is uttered with so much pain.

This is the second confrontation with John being angry and hurt, with Sherlock and Mary just standing by and letting him feel stupid for reacting.

"Why I am the only one who think this is wrong? The only one reacting like a human being?"
"Why is everything always my fault?"

I love Sherlock to death, and I do like Mary. But sometimes my heart goes out to John for being with these to idiots who can never, ever validate his emotions and show any kind of proper, heartfelt empathy for what they time and again let him go through.

nakahara wrote:

Wouldn´t it be much more logical if John was screaming at Mary and demanded explanations from her? She being the actual person that royally broke his trust?

I´m just so tired of Sherlock being blamed for John´s choices....

He was screaming at Mary, but Sherlock was the one answering. John several times told him to shut up (meaning that he wanted to actually address Mary), but Sherlock refused to shut up. So when Sherlock just continued talking, John was more or less forced to address him instead.

I don't see Sherlock being blamed by anyone for what Mary did.

I see your point but there is still the baby to consider.

nakahara wrote:

Well, he´s being blamed for hurting John when he pointed out that John chose Mary.

But by remaining with Mary and forgiving her during Christmas, John showed very clearly that he doen´t want any stabile, domestic, normal Mary... because he knew then that this woman is anything but that. So Sherlock was probably right when he made that remark, IMHO.

But again - it is irrelevant what John knew or what he chose. It will never be his fault that Mary lied to him. 

It´s really frustrating how this episode is written - we cannot be sure what the characters are thinking or feeling at all. 

nakahara wrote:

I´m bit torn on this - I also thought that John is doing this because of the baby. And yet - John sucks at lying and is not very persuasive manipulator. So when he speaks to Mary at Christmas about forgiveness, it doesn´t seem to me that he is shamming there.

He begins the conversation with Mary by saying "These are prepared words" - and I think that's absolutely true, he prepared this little speech he's giving. He prepared it because he's a bad liar and because what he's telling her is one big lie. And he can only do this halfway convincingly by giving her a prepared speech.
At least I hope that this is what is happening here.
 

Vhanja wrote:

Third - no matter what John did or didn't do or pick up on, there is not one single thing in this situation that is his fault! This is victing blaming, and I find it horrible that they would even say something like that. "Why is everything always my fault?!" I feel so incredibly sorry for John in this scene, his hurt and betrayal isn't validated by anyone for a second, he just gets it hammered in that he chose this, he chose this, he chose this.

This actually bothers me more than most things in the series.

 
Yes, I'm totally with you on this.. His life just fell apart around him, and they team up to tell him he chose her and shouldn't be surprised now. That already rubs me the wrong way in the beginning of TEH, when both tell him he's overreacting, after everything he went through. Maybe this is supposed to give a lighthearted note to something that'd be overly grave otherwise.. enable them to continue their relationship on the same terms as before because John kind of agrees that they have a point.. In a way continue his laid-back reactions to being drugged, ordered around and brought into mortal danger because of his connection to Sherlock? Oh alright, I'm furious but then again this is what I like and I just had the best time of my life? Probably the show could never have worked without this pattern of behaviour, and we shouldn't be surprised that his reaction to Mary's betrayal also conforms to this? (Trying to convince myself here ;p)

So, Sherlock is literally bleeding out in Baker Street, his heart will soon give up on him and it´s possible that he will die for real this time (and his medical "friends" don´t give a shit about this and ignore his obvious distress - so obvious that Mrs. Hudson, having no medical education at all, notices it immediately). And you all believe that in this dire moment he has no better work to do than to bellitle and manipulate John for no reason?

It is obvious Sherlock wants to reconcile John and Mary very quickly - and his words about how John chose Mary and his later fairy-tales about surgery all serve some purpose, that´s clear. And because he is practically dying in the process and the whole situation is once again a big self-sacrifice for the sake of other people, there´s really no need to blame him just to absolve John of any responsibility for his choices, so that John´s "saintly image" remains intact.

John partly got into this unpleasant situation by chance, but he always had a choice to revert it by being active and self-sufficient.

If he didn´t like Sherlock´s company, he was free to leave him and to seek danger elsewhere. There were certainly many dangerous places in London where he as a mediacal and an army man could realise his talents. Not to mention extreme sports - he could practice bungee-jumping, cliff-hiking or extreme tourism into dangerous parts of the world for example, Sherlock was certainly not the only one who could provide dangerous "fix" for him.

Similarily, he could speak with Mary any time and force her into some agreement about the future of their child and then leave her or at least have an equal footing with her in their relationship. He now had an USB with details about her criminal past and the knowledge about her true nature in his hands - that gave him an immesurable power over her. He was certainly not forced just to blindly follow her and submit to her. His "high moral principles" are also a bit dubious in light of the fact that he let some dangerous woman (who proved her instability and dangerousness by shooting his best friend out of all things) walk free and unpunished for her crimes whose revelation would sent her behind bars for the rest of her life.

By suggesting that he had absolutely no choice but to defer to both Sherlock and Mary in this people are actually making him into a spineless dishrag - which is not an image John projects when he is onscreen.

Lil, I think you have a point there. Nakahara argued, that by forgiving Mary John chooses her dangerous sides. But it actually works the other way round: he chooses her past swept under the rug, he chooses exactly the opposite of her quirky site by deciding not to read the stick. He wants her in that moment to be the normal woman he thought he had found.

I've never seen John as doormat, but he does seem to kind of person who is happy to follow. He would have to be otherwise his friendship with Sherlock would never work. But, yeah, he does seem to avoid a lot of issues. Then again, he is willing to face some of them as well, but he has been put through lot in HLV. Anyone could become a bit overwhelmed by that.

But I find it equally true that in the two confrontations with Sherlock and Mary present, neither of them validates his emotions, instead brushing them aside to get to the point quickly (reconciliation and get on with the case). The reunion in TEH and the confrontation in 221B in HLV are actually interestingly similar when I think about. It's just a role-reversal of Sherlock and Mary. 

But in both scenes, John is hurt and angry, and is met with impatience because he should just logically understand why things are as they are and get over with it. And it's clear that this is something John find even more frustrating, seeing his outbursts in both scenes. 

I am wondering, though, why he keeps wanting her normalcy when he knows that won't make him happy.