SusiGo wrote:

I do not think so. His last words before Sherlock collapses are "she shot you". Not that she lied to him.

Yeah, but that was something he added afterwards. It seems clear to me that his main reason of anger and hurt comes from her lying to him. That is also the issue he addresses at the Holmes fireplace. 

I read it as a climax - things building up, the worst thing "she shot you" in the final outburst.

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you, Harriet. 

As for the breaking of trust apparently being a bigger issue - this would explain perfectly why this rubs a lot of viewers the wrong way. Sherlock and John have always been at the core of the show. They have both more than once saved each others lives or tried to do so - John with the cabbie in ASiP and at the pool, Sherlock in TRF, TEH, and HLV. And now suddenly being betrayed by Mary shall be more important than nearly losing Sherlock again by her hand?

Yes, that is the one thing that bugs me a bit as well. Not that he feels betrayed and is greatly angry and hurt over it, that is completely understandable. I am not, however, quite able to understand why he is not shown to be more upset over Sherlock being shot and almost killed by her.

Right, Vhanja. But he is shown upset. With John's difficulties with showing emotions, it's no wonder he keeps the most important thing ("she shot you!") until it's almost too late - right before Sherlock's collapse.

We should remember that we see John very upset at the end of the scene - because he worries about Sherlock, not his marriage problems.The scene ends with him breathing heavily and throwing a very dark glance towards Mary. The only information we get about the months afterwards is that he and Mary were not on speaking terms. And he is still clearly uncomfortable in the reconciliation scene. 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 21, 2015 9:59 pm)

I think the grief is very important. He met Mary at a time when he was actively grieving and did not want a person in his life who reminded him in any way of Sherlock. He wanted a life that was as different as possible from everything he had with Sherlock. So what did he choose? A blonde, petite woman with a very normal job and a normal life. This is not really surprising.

And then Sherlock came back and John had both - traditional married life with Mary and the excitement and friendship with Sherlock. Two people he loves and trusts.

So it is quite easy to understand why he reacts like this when this trust is betrayed. He has just come over feeling betrayed by Sherlock and now something happens that is even worse. Because Sherlock lied to him for his own sake but he was always Sherlock. Mary, however, is a stranger.

What is so hurtful IMO is Sherlock telling him that John never wanted "normal" Mary but was looking for danger and subconsciously found it in her. Which led me months ago to the conviction that Sherlock is lying to John in order to placate Mary. He puts on an act to lull her in false security and this is why he deliberately hurts John.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 21, 2015 10:27 pm)

To be honest, I find it quite horrible that both Sherlock and Mary keeps nagging about this all being John's fault because he chose her. That, more than anything else regarding Mary, is the one thing that doesn't sit right with me.

First of all, it makes no sense whatsoever that John would subconsciously know that Mary was a dangerous woman. When Sherlock couldn't deduce it, how on earth was John supposed to? And what leads were his subconscious suppose to pick up?

Second of all, he seemed to have actually been actively looking for normalcy. Yet they want us to believe that he is so addicted to danger that his subconscious twarthed his conscious choce? This notion is so ridiculous it borders on being sci-fi.

Third - no matter what John did or didn't do or pick up on, there is not one single thing in this situation that is his fault! This is victing blaming, and I find it horrible that they would even say something like that. "Why is everything always my fault?!" I feel so incredibly sorry for John in this scene, his hurt and betrayal isn't validated by anyone for a second, he just gets it hammered in that he chose this, he chose this, he chose this.

This actually bothers me more than most things in the series.

Vhanja: And just because this is cruel towards John I do not believe that it reflects Sherlock's actual opinion. Sherlock siding with Mary against John without a deeper reason? Not really.

Well, he is a good actor and it is a desperate situation. Or maybe it is just my trust in the writers that they do not really expect us to accept this. It is the one thing in the whole show that does not sit well with me. I care about this more than about any faulty jump explanations because I could always believe in the characters and the characters are most important to me. I do not have to love all of them but they have to be credible. 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 21, 2015 10:45 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

Vhanja: And just because this is cruel towards John I do not believe that it reflects Sherlock's actual opinion. Sherlock siding with Mary against John without a deeper reason? Not really.

And if that eventually turned out to be how this was really meant, I'm pretty sure I couldn't live with this. Of course Mofftiss can do whatever they want to do, but I doubt that they would be able to sell this to me in a way I could live with. But I'm optimistic that they will stick with their motto "It's a show about a detective and his blogger".