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February 19, 2015 11:04 am  #301


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Harriet wrote:

Because then the show would be over. She intended to kill him as she said, but the writers could not let this happen.

Actually, Moffitson took one step further. She threatened to kill him, then she immediately shot him, Sherlock actually died and then miraculously came back to life because he remembered John was definitely in danger from Mary.
 


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Series arc of Sherlock | Clues to #johnlock being endgame | My fav Sherlock blog
 

February 19, 2015 11:04 am  #302


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So we have good reason within and without the story.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

February 19, 2015 11:05 am  #303


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This.^^
One only has to ponder about the question, how much closer to an actual killing we could get without killing. No space for a sheet of paper IMHO. Just for the dramatic reasons? Maybe.
But as I've mentioned several times: no problem with the shooting per se, but with the handling afterwards, and I think the meta gives some thoughts here.


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

February 19, 2015 11:08 am  #304


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think it was intended that she wanted to kill him. Moffat does say that he regretted not adding the dialogue they filmed when Sherlock commented that the hole in the coin wasn't in the middle, just like the way she shot him was a bit too close for comfort. Even a crack shot will have a bad day and won't make the perfect shot every time, as the coin (and Sherlock) shows.

Moffat regretted that he didn't include it, which would have made it even clearer that she didn't intend to kill him.


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"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

February 19, 2015 11:10 am  #305


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

For my personal likes he seems to not have included several explanatory scenes to kling on.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

February 19, 2015 11:15 am  #306


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I honestly prefer to analyse what is in the show. There are lots of viewers who do not buy the DVDs with deleted scenes and do not read interviews or metas but rely on what they see and hear in the show. They are the majority. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 19, 2015 11:18 am  #307


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I found that where Moffat and Gatiss are concerned it's best to rely what is being shown in the actual show and next the writers. If you check my post you'll see that Moffits themselves have admitted time and time again that they deliberately and blatantly lie to protect from spoilers. Moriarty's survival is like the prime example. At one time Moffat himself pretty convincingly scoffed at the idea of both Sherlock and Moriarty fake suiciding at each other and now what do we see?


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Series arc of Sherlock | Clues to #johnlock being endgame | My fav Sherlock blog
 

February 19, 2015 11:18 am  #308


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

They should place an ad before broadcasting: "Watch with Commentaries Only!" 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

February 19, 2015 11:21 am  #309


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

So bad writing and under pressure in a stuffed episode to leave out explanatory scenes? 


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

February 19, 2015 11:28 am  #310


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

mrshouse wrote:

So bad writing and under pressure in a stuffed episode to leave out explanatory scenes?

Well, we had this article recently which said that the first cut of the episode was five and half hours long. So they maybe keep things for later. Think of the deleted scene. There must be dozens of those if we can trust the article. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 19, 2015 11:28 am  #311


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, my mistake for going to the source when trying to discover the true intent of a scene. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

February 19, 2015 11:31 am  #312


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

What is the source supposed to be? I thought there is a film and then there are comments?


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

February 19, 2015 11:31 am  #313


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But what do we regard as source in TV show? For me the foremost source material is always the show itself. We have been over this more than once but I really do not believe that I need the writers to explain me what they meant. And if I do, there is something wrong with the writing. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 19, 2015 11:33 am  #314


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

To me, the source is the writers. Who else could the source be? But, yes, we have been over this many times before, so probably not necessary to discuss it again. Would be slightly OT as well in this thread.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

February 19, 2015 11:36 am  #315


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Vhanja wrote:

To me, the source is the writers. Who else could the source be? But, yes, we have been over this many times before, so probably not necessary to discuss it again. Would be slightly OT as well in this thread.

SLIGHTLY OT 

But then Moffat says things like this:

Question: I was just wondering about the creative decision to bring Moriarty back. I’m thrilled, but you were very adamant he wasn’t coming back.
Moffat: Because I’ve always given this grand commitment to telling the truth! [laughter] You don’t know what’s going on there. You don’t know what’s going on there. We know what’s going on there but we’re not telling you… for bloody ages! [laughter]. It must be hell watching this show.

and then:

"Anything is possible. But we do our best to surprise you with a combination of lies and deceit. So, we’re never going to tell you what we’re going to do."

Anyone interested to know how much the great Moffitson lie to misdirect the audiance please have a look at this post.I've simply compiled together all the time they themselves admitted that they deliberately and blatantly lie to the audiance. It's an eye opener.

Last edited by tykobrian (February 19, 2015 11:40 am)


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Series arc of Sherlock | Clues to #johnlock being endgame | My fav Sherlock blog
 

February 19, 2015 11:38 am  #316


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Vhanja: Not really as there is so much discussion about Mary as a character. The thing is just that the question "show or comments - what is the main source?" pops up again and again. Maybe someone should open a thread for this intriguing discussion. 

Thank you for linking this again, tykobrian. 

So we can choose to believe what we get in the show or what we are told by people who openly admit that they are often not telling the truth for the sake of suspense and surprise. 

Last edited by SusiGo (February 19, 2015 11:41 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 19, 2015 11:56 am  #317


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Also I don’t think Mary spared Magnusson’s life in the office because of John. That doesn’t even make sense. First of all, yes obviously John will be brought in for questioning for trespassing but surely he can’t be tried for murder? First of all the bullets found in CAM and Sherlock’s body won’t match John’s pistol, which we were told John didn’t bring with him. Then if the police theorize that the killer was John and Sherlock’s accomplice and something went wrong like they had a quarrel and Sherlock mistakenly got shot etc. they’ll have to drop the theory for lack of proof. So maybe John and later Sherlock will be in custody or monitored but they won’t be sentenced for murder.

On the other hand, the real reason I feel Mary let CAM live is because she can’t kill him until she has the documents. Let me be clear first that there’s no way Mary knows the real secret of Appledore. Because if she did know we wouldn’t see her threatening CAM before Sherlock intervened, she’d just outright kill him. So since she thinks the documents are real and are somewhere, she can’t kill CAM until she gets her hands on them. Because surely Mary thought that CAM’d have some precautions in place like in the event of his death, all ‘documents’ get published.  Yes, there aren’t any documents, but none of the people he’s blackmailing know that, so they think they have to bargain with him, not just kill him.


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Series arc of Sherlock | Clues to #johnlock being endgame | My fav Sherlock blog
 

February 19, 2015 12:04 pm  #318


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I fully agree with everything you say. If we are to believe the show, nobody knew about Magnussen's mind palace. I think Sherlock realised the moment Magnussen opened the doors, you can see it clearly in his face. And then he knows that the only way to silence him is to kill him. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

February 19, 2015 12:24 pm  #319


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

mrshouse wrote:

Interesting read, gave me some brain fodder:
http://xistentialangst.tumblr.com/post/73711517931/the-problem-with-mary

Interesting article, thanks for posting it, mrshouse!

I have to say that as much as I´d love the idea of a secret plan and Mary as antagonist I agree with the conclusion of the article - what we´re shown makes most sense if Sherlock really forgave Mary. 

We´ve seen him forgive or help people who hurt and betrayed him before in the show.. he doesn´t seem to hold grudges for long. Seb hated him in uni, yet he helps him solve his case and doesn´t even want to take money for it. Anderson tried to destroy his reputation and yet he talks to him quite friendly now that he´s "reformed". Irene also betrayed him pretty badly, and while he didn´t let her get away with her plan he still goes to some lenghts to save her in the end. Although I feel Mary´s betrayal is much worse, not only because he nearly died but also because he was completely unguarded towards her when she struck.. he can probably see it much more rational and acknowledge the "neccessity" for her actions.

Also he doesn´t seem to have problems with psychopathic streaks or killing people per se.. see his opinion about the Camden Garotter or that he gambled with cannibals (although I find this pretty hard to get together with his emotional reactions when innocents are killed or threatened.. for me this is a tricky point because it really touches the core of the character.)

 

February 19, 2015 3:07 pm  #320


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I get a bit upset when I see that someone (in this case Vhanja) gets practically shut up for including something from the DVD extras, while even badly written metas are analysed with great attention. Let me say I have no problem with the inclusion of metas, however skillfully written. But when I opened this thread, this was part of the rules:

Lola Red wrote:

You may base your arguments on anything in the show, the canon, the commentaries or well informed (!) speculation or any other source you can think of, but please state them when you make a point.

So I feel if someone makes a point based on anything other than the show as seen on BBC, that should be ok, for as long as the source that is used to base a statement on is stated. If anyone does not own the material, you can always ask for a direct quote.
 


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