BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 11:34 am

If this all is true - and you analysed it very well - we would have quite a dark Mycroft, don't you agree? Because he either guided and manipulated Sherlock's actions until the end (which would be horrible because then he had approved Sherlock shooting Magnussen as well) or he inadvertently endangered his brother's life. (And of course this is also a theory quite in accordance with M theory.)

Whisky · February 11, 2015 11:58 am

I am not so sure about Mycroft's brotherly feelings towards Sherlock. He might be tricked into selling Sherlock out, in whatever way. Simply because he looks at the greater good and doesn't see how Sherlock gets inevitably entangled in it all.
As a big brother, he acts absolutely unconvincing in the scene where he "rescues" Sherlock. Of course, he had to stay undercover to get Sherlock out... but i really wonder, what does it take to sit quiet and see Sherlock beaten up like that? A lot. I would expect to see Mycroft in great distress after having witnessed that. And also apologetic. He isn't. I am a bit disgusted with him in that scene and the one directly after (the dialogue back in London).
And Mycroft didn't fill Sherlock in, in ASIB. Would have been clever though, as it turned out. So would he really share knowledge about Mary with Sherlock? So he (Sherlock) can mess around with it again (in Mycrofts point of view)? I don't think so.
Mycroft is just as much business man as Moriarty was/is. He just entertains different means. I would definitely say he has dark aspects as a character.

Last edited by Whisky (February 11, 2015 12:01 pm)

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 12:10 pm

Oh, this is getting quite OT but such an interesting subject:

Yes, he has definitely some dark and Machiavellian character traits. On the other hand I think he truly loves Sherlock. Why else should they show us these moments in front of the Holmes cottage and later in the helicopter? They are just for us, the viewers, not to trick any character within the series.

What convinced me about M theory was the fact that it connects and explains everything Mycroft has said and done througout all episodes. If he was under someone's thumb this might explain his shady dealings without negating his feelings for his brother.

And coming back to topic - it might also explain that he probably knew about Mary's past and yet did nothing to stop her marrying John and thereby getting close to his brother.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 11, 2015 12:11 pm)

nakahara · February 11, 2015 12:18 pm

But if Mycroft only used Sherlock to get to CAM as his puppet - why bother to fly on helicopter to CAM´s residence to get his laptop back? Why having his men surround Sherlock and not to order them beforehand, not to shoot on his brother no matter what? It doesn´t make sense....

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 12:21 pm

I agree. I think we do not have all the information yet. Else it would be bad writing which I tend to think it is not. My only idea would be that Mycroft and Sherlock planned the laptop thing but both did not know about the mind palace. This would explain Mycroft's shock in the helicopter.

Whisky · February 11, 2015 12:52 pm

So basically Magnusson got everything right, and everybody in the show is just dangling on someone's elses thread, or helpless caught under someones thumb?
But who is the true villain then? And who started it?

I see Mary's red coat definitely as a colour of warning. Especially as John and Sherlock mostly wear unobtrusive colours (is that the word?). She always stands on her own. She never really fits in next to John: when I see them together, I see John, I see Mary, but they don't really blend, like for example Sherlock and John do, or Sherlock and Mrs. Hudson... It's also like the colour makes her stand out, but not only that, but also stand apart. If they really had wanted to fit her into the little familiy, she could have worn a nice beige or grey coat at the tarmac... something fitting to John's outfit. Maybe she is too eccentric for that, maybe too dominant... but I don't believe the creators would ignore colour as an instrument - it's powerful. Also the other two colours that stand out are black (as assassin) and white (wedding dress). She wears other clothes in between, but these colours seem to mirror her roles: the wife, the assassin, and ...? Who is the girl in the red coat?
I agree that there is heavy symbolism in that colour.

Is somebody here who likes and wears red as a colour?
I cannot really judge it because I dislike red as a colour (on clothing) and I feel a bit biased. Red makes me feel uncomfortable on people... it feels aggressive to me, like "watch me, here I am". So I interpret Mary that way of course. But that's a very personal interpretation I guess. I could add that I find wearing black gives me a feeling of strenghts (fits Marys assassin clothes).

I also think Sherlock was right about Mycroft: rubbish big brother. But that's offtopic and just my opinion

Last edited by Whisky (February 11, 2015 1:00 pm)

Whisky · February 11, 2015 1:11 pm

I just read this and it kind of proves for me that Sherlock wasn't in on Mary:
http://wellthengameover.tumblr.com/post/106653786132/think-its-the-new-sexy-what-sherlock-knows
I want so badly to know what Sherlock thinks about her...

Lola Red · February 11, 2015 1:19 pm

I do not think Mycroft thought Sherlock would go so far as to kill someone, he seems truly shocked by that. I think he came there to take CAM down, with or without Sherlock’s knowledge. If they worked together, maybe Sherlock did not share with him that he had the suspicion that the vaults where actually a mind palace (I believe Sherlock knew that was at least a possibility, why else ask John to bring the gun?).
I do think Mycroft is quite a dark character. For example, I find it very unbelievable that Mycroft would not have known about Sherlock’s renewed drug habit, when it was so obvious that the papers were on to him. But that means that Mycroft willingly ignored that his addicted brother was back on drugs. That seems very dark to me. I do think Mycroft loves Sherlock and his loss would truly break his heart, but he is willing to put him into quite a lot of danger, before his big brother instincts are kicking in.

One question though: what is “M theory”?

lil · February 11, 2015 1:23 pm

I think M theory is the wrong way round...Mycroft used Moriarty and Magnussen to his own advantage both times.
Moriarty to get Sherlock back under his command in MI6 and maybe even separated from or realise his weakness.../John.
And Magnussen..didn't he say something like...Mycroft had been after him for ages...
Mycroft turns things to his advantage but I don't think he specifically manipulates them....and I think he covers Sherlocks back .
I think he knew but didn't do anything about Mary.....many reasons for that....and maybe felt a bit guilty when she shot Sherlock....hence his cooperation with the punch@the laptop etc.

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 1:26 pm

M theory is the most elaborate meta in fandom including not only the series as such but also John's blog and especially the music. The first time I read about it I thought the author was insane . But it is really quite intriguing and explains many things that otherwise make no sense. We should have a thread about it one day. Here is a link:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1295917/chapters/2688871

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 1:30 pm

Whisky wrote:
I just read this and it kind of proves for me that Sherlock wasn't in on Mary:
http://wellthengameover.tumblr.com/post/106653786132/think-its-the-new-sexy-what-sherlock-knows
I want so badly to know what Sherlock thinks about her...

Good meta. And I agree that Sherlock did not know about Mary's past whatever that may have been. And quite a lot of people think that Mary is Moran because Lord Moran was a boring character who does not speak a single line and is played by an actor whose name so far nobody could find out. Mary on the other hand is a well-trained shot. And I really do not believe that she met John Watson, best friend of Sherlock Holmes, by chance because they just happened to work in the same surgery.

Lola Red · February 11, 2015 1:33 pm

SusiGo wrote:
M theory is the most elaborate meta in fandom including not only the series as such but also John's blog and especially the music. The first time I read about it I thought the author was insane . But it is really quite intriguing and explains many things that otherwise make no sense. We should have a thread about it one day. Here is a link:

http://archiveofourown.org/works/1295917/chapters/2688871

Wow
Thank you for the link, that surely is elaborate. I will go through it when I have time to really read it all.

Lola Red · February 11, 2015 2:15 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Whisky wrote:
I just read this and it kind of proves for me that Sherlock wasn't in on Mary:
http://wellthengameover.tumblr.com/post/106653786132/think-its-the-new-sexy-what-sherlock-knows
I want so badly to know what Sherlock thinks about her...

Good meta. And I agree that Sherlock did not know about Mary's past whatever that may have been. And quite a lot of people think that Mary is Moran because Lord Moran was a boring character who does not speak a single line and is played by an actor whose name so far nobody could find out. Mary on the other hand is a well-trained shot. And I really do not believe that she met John Watson, best friend of Sherlock Holmes, by chance because they just happened to work in the same surgery.

Interesting. I have not yet read the canon story involving Moran, but that sounds intriguing. Actually, if Moriarty is alive, that might have been his greatest coup yet. I have a little theory that Moriarty and CAM are connected - Moriarty suddenly uses “pressure points” in TRF, the very same thing CAM specialises in. Also look at the wording Moriarty could have said “weak spots” or anything like that, but he uses the phrase “pressure points”. I have thought for some time now that there might be a connection - If Moriarty inserted his hench(wo)man into Sherlock’s inner circle (assuming that this meta has it by the right end) and then made Sherlock practically destroy his own life to protect her from one of his other associates, he might have actually set up a game than Sherlock could not win. Either he abandons Mary, and John, Sherlock and Mycroft are taken down in her fall. Or he sacrifices his own future - a Reichenbach Fall 2.1. And this time, even John and Mycroft would no longer be able to see Sherlock as a hero. Mycroft is willing to send him into certain death. John hesitates to shake his hand during what he thinks is a final goodbye, unable to thank him for what he had done, unable now to call him the best and wisest man he had ever know, or the most human human being. In this case, Moriarty might have returned to the public eye to let Sherlock know he had truly been beaten, and by whom. And, of course, to call back his favourite toy. A lot of if’s, but intriguing nevertheless.

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 2:20 pm

I agree about a possible connection between Moriarty and Magnussen. Another hint at a connection between Mary and Moran - the Canon story where Moran appears is called "The Empty House" to which they alluded with the title of TEH. But the true empty houses are found in Leinster Gardens where Mary demonstrates her shooting skills and threatens Sherlock.

tonnaree · February 11, 2015 2:43 pm

In my humble opinion, Mary turning out to be Moran would be the best possible twist.
I've stated before that I'd rather her not be a grey character. Let her be an out and out villian and go out in a blaze of dark glory.

I've seen the idea suggested several places of there being a showdown where Mary is holding a gun to Sherlock and John is holding a gun on Mary. I think this scene with these actors would be amazing and I would find it deeply satisfing.

But that's just me.

lil · February 11, 2015 2:59 pm

Agree@Tonnaree - though I don't think I will ever see being a freelance assasin and shooting innocent witness' s as grey.
Darkly hilarious.....but not really ever ok.

Whisky · February 11, 2015 3:07 pm

I honestly wish they didn't all start with M... makes my head explode.

SusiGo wrote:
But it is really quite intriguing and explains many things that otherwise make no sense. We should have a thread about it one day.

One day? How about now... ;-) I'm sure I'll have questions, it's quite elaborate indeed.

Last edited by Whisky (February 11, 2015 3:09 pm)

Schmiezi · February 11, 2015 6:31 pm

tonnaree wrote:
In my humble opinion, Mary turning out to be Moran would be the best possible twist.
I've stated before that I'd rather her not be a grey character. Let her be an out and out villian and go out in a blaze of dark glory.

I've seen the idea suggested several places of there being a showdown where Mary is holding a gun to Sherlock and John is holding a gun on Mary. I think this scene with these actors would be amazing and I would find it deeply satisfing.

But that's just me.

Not just you - I am with you completely on this one.

SusiGo · February 11, 2015 6:39 pm

So am I.

And what is more, while many of the characters are not morally flawless they can usually be assigned to the "good" or the "bad" side (I am simplifying here). They may have flaws or a naughty past like Mrs Hudson but most of the recurring characters are either on the side of the angels or the other side. Both Moriarty and Magnussen are clearly evil. And Sherlock, John, Lestrade, Mrs Hudson, and Molly are clearly on the opposite side. IMO the only characters so far that can be truly called morally grey are Irene Adler and maybe Mycroft (in the light of what we discussed today in here).

Sherlock Holmes · February 11, 2015 9:32 pm

What about Mrs Hudson? She's surely one of the good guys! (Except the occasional pot smoking and exotic dancing).