BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Vhanja · February 9, 2015 8:24 pm

Swanpride wrote:
But she also says: "I'll do whatever I can to make it up to you, but I won't be your doormat." And that's important. Otherwise the result would be a very unhealthy relationship, with Mary constantly tiptoeing aroung John. That's what the so called "snarking" is about, establishing the basiline.

Yes, very good point.

SusiGo · February 9, 2015 8:26 pm

When exactly does she say that?

Vhanja · February 9, 2015 8:32 pm

SusiGo wrote:
When exactly does she say that?

She doesn't say that line, but that is what we interpret her comment about the child's name and mowing the lawn to be. If they can't joke together like they used to, and if she can't draw the line on some things like she used to do, they will never have a healthy relationship. Yes, he will be mad sometimes, and yes, she will accept that, and that it will take time to fully heal. But she can't tiptoe around him and bow to his every whim because of always feeling guilty - that would not work.

That is what I think her "snark" is about.

Schmiezi · February 9, 2015 8:34 pm

I can see "I won't be your doormat", but where is the "I'll do whatever I can to make it up to you"?

Vhanja · February 9, 2015 8:35 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
I can see "I won't be your doormat", but where is the "I'll do whatever I can to make it up to you"?

I see it in her crying, her tight hug and her quick and understanding "I know, I know!" when John says he will still be mad and it will still come out.

Schmiezi · February 9, 2015 8:38 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
I can see "I won't be your doormat", but where is the "I'll do whatever I can to make it up to you"?
I see it in her crying, her tight hug and her quick and understanding "I know, I know!" when John says he will still be mad and it will still come out.

Well, yes, I guess this is really all she can do.

Lola Red · February 9, 2015 10:07 pm

I take back part of my earlier comment about the reconciliation scene. I just re-watched it (I should re-watch stuff before I comment on it; my memory tends to betray me sometimes). John initiates the bickering after he burns the USB stick (“You can mow the sodding lawn from now on”). So I guess both of them are trying to find back to what was normal for them before, even though I stand by my earlier comment that their relationship will probably never be the same again and I think they both know it.

I do not see a “I’ll do whatever I can to make it up to you” in the reconciliation scene, I think Mary is already unconscious (thanks to the spiked tea) by the time her brain might have come to that point. But I do see a “I cannot believe you would take me back after everything I’ve done” in her terrified expression before John offers his forgiveness, in her tears, her “You don’t even know my name”, her “Yes, oh my god yes” to the question if being Mary Watson would be good enough for her and her “I know, I know, I know” when John tells her he is still pissed at her and will act on it in the future.

Vhanja · February 9, 2015 10:24 pm

Lola Red wrote:
I take back part of my earlier comment about the reconciliation scene. I just re-watched it (I should re-watch stuff before I comment on it; my memory tends to betray me sometimes). John initiates the bickering after he burns the USB stick (“You can mow the sodding lawn from now on”). So I guess both of them are trying to find back to what was normal for them before, even though I stand by my earlier comment that their relationship will probably never be the same again and I think they both know it.

I do not see a “I’ll do whatever I can to make it up to you” in the reconciliation scene, I think Mary is already unconscious (thanks to the spiked tea) by the time her brain might have come to that point. But I do see a “I cannot believe you would take me back after everything I’ve done” in her terrified expression before John offers his forgiveness, in her tears, her “You don’t even know my name”, her “Yes, oh my god yes” to the question if being Mary Watson would be good enough for her and her “I know, I know, I know” when John tells her he is still pissed at her and will act on it in the future.

Lola, I love your analysis. They always seem so spot on.

SusiGo · February 9, 2015 10:30 pm

Sorry, I know I am being stubborn here but she had enough time to say she was sorry or show regret before losing consciousness and chose not to. She did not do so in Baker Street. And we get no hint that she did so in the period between the 221b scene and Christmas. Not enough to convince me. So I think we have to agree to disagree on that.

nakahara · February 9, 2015 11:35 pm

Few interesting observation on the subject of Mary:

http://silentauroriamthereal.tumblr.com/post/109748995335/just-a-reminder-that-mary-being-a-thoroughly

Lola Red · February 9, 2015 11:59 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Sorry, I know I am being stubborn here but she had enough time to say she was sorry or show regret before losing consciousness and chose not to. She did not do so in Baker Street. And we get no hint that she did so in the period between the 221b scene and Christmas. Not enough to convince me. So I think we have to agree to disagree on that.

Do you mean me or Vhanja? I can only speak for myself, but I’m not trying to convince anyone. I just enjoy being challenged to think through the discussion, so disagreeing is fine with me.

I would have wished for some more explanation on how John came to forgive Mary. The two scenes we are given are being interrupted by people collapsing in the middle of the action, there might have been two heartfelt apologies in the making-or not- but we will never know. I would be very wary though to base anything on the time between the 221b scene and the Christmas scene, as we are not really given much information about that time. Might be that Mary never showed any sigh of regret or remorse during this time. Might also be that she asked for forgiveness repeatedly. We know since TEH that John takes his time with coming to terms with things and accepting apologies and (as far as we know) Mary did not have an exploding tube department to her disposal to speed things up. I feel that there is not enough shown of what makes John forgive her in the end, we go from very much upset John to forgiving John without having been able to join him an that journey and that might be part of the reason why forgiving Mary is such a bitter pill to swallow for so many fans.

mrshouse · February 10, 2015 6:14 am

Actually that makes two decision makings concerning Mary we don't get: we don't really know how Sherlock came to forgive her, help her out and take her case and we don't get how John came to take her back. That's too little for me to cling on. From Mary we get very very very very little and nothing from own impetus. She fights till she is exposed and sits through afterwards. And I think we don't have to mention that an exploding bomb is not necessary but showing remorse and maybe being a bit more humble.

Zatoichi · February 10, 2015 7:15 am

Lola Red wrote:
I feel that there is not enough shown of what makes John forgive her in the end, we go from very much upset John to forgiving John without having been able to join him an that journey and that might be part of the reason why forgiving Mary is such a bitter pill to swallow for so many fans.

Yes, I think this is true - at least it is for me.
There is almost no time between Sherlock´s absolutely disgusted face in Leinster Gardens and him using his last energy before cardiac arrest to get Mary back together with John.. and also very little time to adjust your feelings from this:
to "bicker, banter, but I will be angry occasionally.."
My emotions are too old-fashioned, they can´t keep up with such a pace.. And the little evidence we actually get to explain those rapid changes on an intellectual level are not sufficient to convince them.. and to erase the strong impressions of John´s and Sherlock´s initial feelings of shock, anger and disgust.

Then of course there´s Mary, who looks like that between the shooting and Christmas:

I know this is ambiguous and probably everyone gets something different from facial expressions.. but for me they don´t say "cornered, desperate, sorry about the decision she was forced to make, and willing to negotiate and reconcile with the friend she shot and the husband she deceived.." The best I can make of these expressions is "defensive", to me they give a really creepy and chilling feeling.. maybe still influenced by the hospital-scene in which we see her from Sherlock´s blurred and barely conscious point of view. So again the time from this to her tearful "yes, oh god yes" is so short and the change so abrupt that I find myself incapable of just going with the flow here.. I don´t want to be stubborn, but something just doesn´t add up here. Maybe it isn´t that hard for people who liked her in the first place and so just can drop back to the sympathetic feeling they had all along for Mary with Sherlock´s explanation?

Last edited by Zatoichi (February 10, 2015 9:10 am)

SolarSystem · February 10, 2015 7:49 am

Yes, Zatoichi, I think it has been mentioned before: It might be easier to forgive a character and to believe that the character regrets something if you really like(d) the character initially.
However, that doesn't change the fact that Mofftiss had all the power to make basically everyone understand and forgive Mary. They could have given us so much more in terms of regret and penitence, they could have made absolutely clear how sorry she is and that there just was no other way for her than to do what she did. But they didn't show us that, they left so many things out... and what they did show us on the other hand doesn't look like remorse to me, either. Your pics show this quite nicely.

SusiGo · February 10, 2015 7:54 am

Lola: I very much agree with you that there is simply something missing that could explain how John came to forgive Mary. Or maybe we will get further information? What made me think twice was the link I posted in the special thread.

http://www.denofgeek.us/tv/sherlock/241667/111-things-you-might-not-know-about-sherlock-season-3

No. 69 is quite interesting in this respect. I put a further link in the special thread because of spoilers so I am not going to post it here. But it is fact that they shot far more material for HLV than they could use. I mean, 5.5 hours in the first cut instead 1.5 make an enormous difference. The deleted Magnussen scene is only a few minutes long. Think of what they have and chose not to include in HLV. Which means the material is there and can used for any future episode.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 10, 2015 8:04 am)

mrshouse · February 10, 2015 8:02 am

And there is another thing: it actually makes sense to read the Christmas reconciliation scene not as a happy moment but as a start to a new beginning. Butbutbut then there is almost straight afterwards the damn tarmac scene where they all seem to have forgotten and forgiven. That doesn't really work as well.

Zatoichi · February 10, 2015 8:04 am

Wow, I´m really surprised about that amount of unused material, given how expensive every minute on set is..

Lola Red · February 10, 2015 9:04 am

I see we seem to agree on the point of wanting more insight into the decision making process of the characters (Zatoichi, that was my line you were quoting there btw, not Vhanja’s). For some reason I find Sherlock easier to follow here than John, based on what we know about the characters. Last time John had to forgive something big, he literally needed an exploding tube department to come to that point, I am wondering what got him to this point this time. Just the passing of time?
I’m personally not the biggest fan of discussing from screenshots, because I find them to be so very momentarily and open to interpretation, but you are using them to good effect here Zatoichi. Can you give me the one of “disgusted Sherlock” in Leinster Gardens? I only see shock (at being shot) and anger (at not being asked for help in the first place) and lots of physical (and psychological) pain, but I fail to see the disgust on his side. I agree that Mary looks quite “hard”(?) from Leinster Gardens to at least halfway through the 221b scene, but I see her softening quite a bit when she is sure he is not about to be exposed.
The amount of cut material is impressive. How could that even happen? They know they don’t get more than 90 min per episode, I cannot imagine TPTB just wasting such fast amounts of resources. But I almost hope they will not just insert pieces here and there to make more sense of what they showed in the first place, that feels like cheating to me. Unless, of course, it is done really well.

mrshouse wrote:
And there is another thing: it actually makes sense to read the Christmas reconciliation scene not as a happy moment but as a start to a new beginning. Butbutbut then there is almost straight afterwards the damn tarmac scene where they all seem to have forgotten and forgiven. That doesn't really work as well.

How would you like a new beginning to look like?

Last edited by Lola Red (February 10, 2015 9:07 am)

mrshouse · February 10, 2015 9:19 am

Lola, as for the Sherlock face you might want to check here: http://captainsjm.tumblr.com/post/98478644913/lighting-the-liars-of-leinster-gardens. I find this face of Sherlock very hard and a bit repelled but others might see it differently. And after that there is Sherlock " taking her case" without time to accommodate to this change.
As for the new beginning it's hard to tell. For the tarmac I would definitely have preferred not to have Mary around at all I think. If I consider Christmas not as a forgiving but as being ready to start anew it feels wrong to have her holding hands with John and hug Sherlock, not to mention the red coat in the greyish visuals.
I very much agree with you that I would feel cheated if the writers now came up with tons if scenes to make us go " poor lamb, she had no choice".

Vhanja · February 10, 2015 10:00 am

I am always a bit sceptical to using screenshots like that, because in the same scene she is crying with relief - why not show that screenshot instead? It won't be a good analysis of their feelings throughout an entire scene based on one freeze frame when there are others to choose from that tells a different story.

It seems to be a recurring technique used in Sherlock - whenever something happens that requires a prolonged period of emotional process, it's done off-screen (John's mouring after Sherlock's jump, John deciding to forgive Mary). And that makes sense - they only have three episodes per season, you can't spend the majority on those episodes focusing on stuff like that. (That is also the reason why I believe Mary will be killed off towards the end of one episode and the next episode will be set months, if not years, after that. Again, to do the mourning off-screen).

So I don't have a problem with the time lapses, that's how the show works. And the reasons for why John would forgive Mary, well, that is all explained by Sherlock in 221B before he collapses. John just needs his time to get there himself, understandably.

As for the Tarmac scene, there is very little interaction between John and Mary, so we can't really say much about their relationship from that scene. Most couples, no matter what issues they are working through, are able to keep a straight face and act civil in public.