nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Like so many people, I read The Hobbit at a young age, and I really wasn't happy with the romance story that was added to it for the films - it just wasn't that kind of story for me.   I'd have been even less happy if say, Bilbo and Gandalf (or anyone) had been lovers, because they're main characters and it would change their relationship, and change the story into something else.  

I can imagine if I'd felt the way Moftiss did about the ACD stories at a young age, I might feel the same about not wanting to tag on a romance that would alter the main characters.  It would be different if they'd come to the books later in life, I think.
 

I don´t really think this is the reason why Moftiss won´t introduce Johnlock into the story. Because they already made the huge changes that altered the main characters in a radical manner - for example, they painted Sherlock as a person much more reckless and almost criminally careless than he was in the original, even called him ridiculous in TSOT, they made Mary Morstan into a ninja-killer and John Watson into a emotionally repressed man with a dangerously short-fuse... if they did not shy away from those changes, one more change should not bother them, really.

It's just an explanation that fits for me - I have no idea of it's true or not!   But I can't think of a better explanation - can you?

They often talk about the influence of the stories on them, when they were young and I can see that some of those impressions stuck.  For instance, there's Steven talking about having wanted to see Sherlock Holmes do the best man's speech and John and Mary's wedding - he ended building a whole episode around that childhood desire.  Whereas I can see that Mary Morstan might be quite a boring character for a child to read about, so they might be happy to change her into an exciting ninja-killer.   It's not so much about sticking exactly to the ACD canon (they don't) but about being influenced by their childhood/early perceptions and desires. 

"I simply think that television companies are still quite uneasy with the idea of having openly gay characters on-screen and that´s the reason why they hesitate to portray John-Sherlock relationship as openly gay."

Many people have said that but this isn't just any television company.  This is the BBC.  One word...........TORCHWOOD!

Yes, I don't think it's to do with fear of showing gay characters at all. 

They've both mentioned the books as being a big influence when they were young - Jeremy Brett's Sherlock hadn't appeared until they were out of childhood.  They might have seen Private Life on TV - I can't remember if it was on (and I don't think there's Johnlock in it as such - more a kind of unrequited love on Sherlock's part.  And I think they made it clear that they weren't going down the same route with the restaurant conversation in ASIP).   They would have been more likely to have seen the Rathbone films.   But again it's about how they saw it (or read it) - what meant something to them, etc.  That's just the explanation that rings true to me - particularly bearing in mind how I felt about the Hobbit's "love story".
 

Last edited by Liberty (February 4, 2015 9:57 pm)

Liberty wrote:

  ........they often talk about the influence of the stories on them, when they were young and I can see that some of those impressions stuck.  For instance, there's Steven talking about having wanted to see Sherlock Holmes do the best man's speech and John and Mary's wedding - he ended building a whole episode around that childhood desire.  Whereas I can see that Mary Morstan might be quite a boring character for a child to read about, so they might be happy to change her into an exciting ninja-killer.   It's not so much about sticking exactly to the ACD canon (they don't) but about being influenced by their childhood/early perceptions and desires. 

I can see why Moffatt wanted to write that wedding reception scene--  I mean, how cool is that idea? What I don't understand is why: a) they decided to give it such a dream-like feeling, with the harsh yellow light, the crazy yellow and bluebird walls, Sherlock all bug-eyed like he was on something, the room full of people we never saw before (along with some old familiars), the thing with Sholto. And yet, later on, b) once it got dark, it was rather sweet, the dancing, the violin playing and the song written for John and Mary, the odd J-M-S scene with S deducing about the baby and all of that. And c) finally and most important to most johnlockers, why Moffatt made it so very very laced with pure johnlock!! I mean, wow! The scene included much of  what we johnlockers were dying to see and hear.

Unfortunate, as I say, (to me) that it had dream-like qualities, and that the speech was too long and strange, that the crowd was kinda subdued and odd throughout. But I will forever cherish John getting to his feet and hugging Sherlock around the neck! And Sherlock esteeming John as the only one in the world who would or could put up with Sherlock, etc.

So yeah, I could see that the reception scene was lovingly crafted, but I guess maybe I was disappointed that it wasn't more reality-based (again, IMO). It really was a bit cartoonish, the only word I can think of to describe it.

If any of you ever read Superman comic books when you were young, well.....  Mary and all her aliases and underground (and above-ground, for that matter!) activities (as you said, a ninja-killer) would have fit right into those pages.

So to haul this back on topic, my question I guess is why Moffat would have dreamed of writing that scene for like forever but when he made it so, he decided to make it one of the most overt johnlock scenes we've ever been given, and with John's wife sittting right there like a 3rd wheel!

Last edited by ancientsgate (February 4, 2015 10:37 pm)

ancientsgate wrote:

So to haul this back on topic, my question I guess is why Moffat would have dreamed of writing that scene for like forever but when he made it so, he decided to make it one of the most overt johnlock scenes we've ever been given, and with John's wife sittting right there like a 3rd wheel!

I'm wondering the exact same thing. Haven't Steven or Mark flat out stated that the episode is more or less a love letter from Sherlock to John? They use John's wedding to Mary as a way to declare Sherlock's love to John. It's just... mind-bogling. 

I keep saying: If you insist on standing on the rooftop shouting "Johnlock will never happen", WHY do you keep doing this?!

From what I understand, the debate whether or not Sherlock and John was ever a couple is way older than BBC Sherlock. I believe that debate was also concerning ACD stories. So even ACD purists would know about it. 

It was never mentioned in the books, but seeing as it's a debate older than tv I reckon it was something there that made it a viable possibility. 

Well, there are other approaches to ACD canon, actually. I won't repeat all the arguments again why ACD himself was the first shipper, but I think there are lots of hints.

Harriet wrote:

Well, there are other approaches to ACD canon, actually. I won't repeat all the arguments again why ACD himself was the first shipper, but I think there are lots of hints.

As far as I know, ACD didn't actually write a shippy thing between his John and Sherlock.  Most BBC johnlockers say they long and hope for a time when the BBC S/J will actually kiss, hug, declare their love and devotion, etc. But the point I was trying to make is, ACD himself never wrote that, did he?  Not hints, but actual dialogue and character scenes with them being more-than-just-friends?
 

ancientsgate wrote:

But it doesn't matter what any of us think or want--  TPTB will do or not do as they please, and we're all just along for the ride.

Of course they will do as they please, but why are we even here discussing the show day in and day out if it doesn't matter what any of us think? Sorry, but that's a nice way to end a discussion.
 

SolarSystem wrote:

ancientsgate wrote:

But it doesn't matter what any of us think or want--  TPTB will do or not do as they please, and we're all just along for the ride.

Of course they will do as they please, but why are we even here discussing the show day in and day out if it doesn't matter what any of us think? Sorry, but that's a nice way to end a discussion.
 

Just for clarification, I don't think it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks--  we're all entitled to think anything we like! But I don't believe that TPTB will write or not write anything into future episodes based on what any fans think or want. Or at least, I hope not. Here on the forum, of course we can beat any subject to death that we choose to. So keep calm and carry on.