BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem · February 3, 2015 12:57 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Why should something like kissing be uncomfortable for the actors? They are professionals. It should not be too uncomfortable to kiss a man if you are a professonial actor (same goes for actresses of course).

I totally agree. It's their job, and if they are any good at it, that shouldn't be a problem at all. It always depends on the writing of course, if the writing is crap then shooting such a scene might well feel odd and uncomfortable.
I mean, look at Martin in "Love Actually"... granted, it's a comedy, but playing this porno actor stand-in might not have felt all that comfortable, either.
(Actors play men who rape women, and whether or not one likes to watch such scenes in movies: they exist and actors play those parts. I'd imagine that kissing another bloke might be more comfortable than playing a guy who rapes a woman.)

ancientsgate · February 3, 2015 12:59 pm

SusiGo wrote:
And I would fully trust the team to turn this into a beautiful, romantic, and natural moment. Sorry, but I really do not understand these reservations.

Bless your trusting heart, Susi. I wish I could trust them the way you do, but I do not. Not about this most precious thing especially.

SusiGo · February 3, 2015 1:01 pm

Solar: Since you mentioned rape - I once read that Benedict felt very uncomfortable with this aspect of his "Atonement" character and with playing that scene. I think in comparison kissing Martin Freeman cannot be that bad.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 3, 2015 1:03 pm)

tonnaree · February 3, 2015 1:04 pm

There are fans out there on the big wide web that think sex would cheapen John and Sherlock's relationship and that bothers me. I agree that it would not automatically be "better" than a platonic love, but it's not less than either.

I was lucky enough to fall in love with a man that I have been very good friends with first. Taking our relationship from the emotional to the physical was just another step in it's progress. It enriched it and made it stronger.

By the same token I have had a very intense, emotionally intimate relationship with my best friend for over 30 years. There has never even been a hint that things could cross over to the physical. But that does not make my relationship with her any more or less valuable or "noble" than my relationship with my husband. They are both important and I wouldn't trade either.

So I don't care if you ship johnlock or not but I really don't like the idea that developing a physical connection between them would be bad.

Damn, how did I get up on this soap box?

SusiGo · February 3, 2015 1:04 pm

Ancientsgate - since the best man speech my trust in their emotional abilities is almost boundless.

Liberty · February 3, 2015 1:14 pm

I don't think Moftiss have ever claimed that it's NOT about the relationship - quite the opposite. I'm sure some of you watched the Steven Moffat and Mark Ravenhill interview from 2010 - this was before Sherlock had been shown on TV.

GE: How far is this a buddy movie? I mean, it is about the relationship between these two men.

SM: You know I think the Sherlock Holmes stories have always been about the friendship. I mean, the surface level is the detection, but what you fall in love with is these two impossible opposites who adore each other. And it's a very male friendship in that they never sit down and ever, ever talk about it. And there's only one instance in the entire canon of the show that comes to where Sherlock Holmes admits he likes Dr Watson, one occasion, when he thinks Dr Watson is about to die. That's it! A totally male friendship, you only say anything nice if someone is dead in front of you.

GE: Where does the gay bit come in? I mean are you playing with it? Are you teasing the audience?

SM: Do you know what? It doesn't really. Even in that scene, what we're doing there is kind of dismissing it. Who knows who Sherlock Holmes fancies? I don't think he fancies anyone except himself.

GE: So, that's part of the mystery that Mark was talking about. Is that how you saw it?

MR: Yeah, I think on one level it's not gay at all, and that scene brilliantly dismisses that. And yet, as I said, it does play with this thing of normally the male-male relationship is you're with somebody more comfortable and more safe than females, who are strange and mysterious to straight men. And yet, Dr Watson finds himself with this kind of elusive, changeable, mysterious person. And in a lot of fiction, it's the female character. So there is something about the male-female relationship, alongside the buddy thing, which makes it much more complex than most buddy-buddy relationships.

So what they seem to have created is a friendship, but not an ordinary one by any means, and one that has features of romance elements (but no sexual elements). I think that's what creates the dichotomy - because we're used to seeing those elements in male/female stories.

Vhanja · February 3, 2015 1:25 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Why should something like kissing be uncomfortable for the actors? They are professionals. It should not be too uncomfortable to kiss a man if you are a professonial actor (same goes for actresses of course).

I wasn't talking about kissing.

SusiGo · February 3, 2015 1:32 pm

Just to be clear - I do not expect or demand any hot sex scenes. This is not what they do on "Sherlock". But a kiss, a real hug, or John coming out of Sherlock's bedroom (well, Janine did this already, so they could walk out of the bedroom together) should be fine and not uncomfortable for any actor.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 3, 2015 1:32 pm)

tonnaree · February 3, 2015 1:33 pm

Vhanja wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Why should something like kissing be uncomfortable for the actors? They are professionals. It should not be too uncomfortable to kiss a man if you are a professonial actor (same goes for actresses of course).
I wasn't talking about kissing.

I think both Ben and Martin could handle it. They are both utter professionals and I believe they trust Mark and Steven. I also belive that if such a scene were to occur on Sherlock it would be so carefully crafted. It would be something everyone would put their heart and soul into.

I'm totally ok if such a scene never happens. As a matter of fact even if johnlock becomes canon I don't ever expect anything explicit. But I would dance a little dance of joy it if did.

SolarSystem · February 3, 2015 1:33 pm

The only thing Johnlockers are interested in is sex, didn't you know that, Susi?

SusiGo · February 3, 2015 1:34 pm

Oh, yes, I forgot.

SolarSystem · February 3, 2015 1:37 pm

Love. I want to see romantic love between them. Sex eventually would come into play, but that's not what I need to see on screen. I want to see romantic love, and there are so many beautiful ways of showing that.

Vhanja · February 3, 2015 1:39 pm

No, to be serious for a moment:

I personally think, and I might be way wrong here, is that Ben and Martin might not be comfortable with the idea at all. Neither of them are homophobic in the slightest, and Ben has already played at least two gay men as I can think of (and one pedo character, even). I don't think any of them would mind playing a gay man in a gay relationship, kiss and all.

But I think the Sherlock series has become too loaded, too many crazy fans and too many awkward questions and confrontations with journalists who have no idea where to stop. When Martin has to go public and state that he isn't in a relationship with Ben and that Amanda is not his beard, then this whole thing has gone way, way too far.

So I don't think it's the idea of "kissing another man" that would make the uncomfortable, I think both of them would do that without hesitation in the right role. But with all the stuff they've gone through with Sherlock already, imagine if Johnlock became real? Imagine the media, the fandom, the frenzy - they would never live it down.

I personally think that aspect alone will ensure that it never happens in the show.

Last edited by Vhanja (February 3, 2015 1:40 pm)

tonnaree · February 3, 2015 1:42 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
The only thing Johnlockers are interested in is sex, didn't you know that, Susi?

My obsessive interest in sex actually has nothing to do with johnlock.

SusiGo · February 3, 2015 1:42 pm

Vhanja: Do you think that this would keep the writers (provided they wanted to do this) from realising their plans for the show? This would be quite disappointing and unprofessional, IMO. Oh, some fans are crazy or delusional about the actors, so let us change our plans? Not really.
And please remember that this is just a small minority in fandom, those Freebatch people thinking Martin and Benedict are in love with each other. The show airs in 180 countries all over the world. Do you really think they would submit themselves to every whim of the audience?

There may be arguments why this is not going to happen in the show, but this is something I am not willing to believe.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 3, 2015 1:45 pm)

Vhanja · February 3, 2015 1:45 pm

SusiGo wrote:
So you think that this would keep the writers (provided they wanted to do this) from realising their plans for the show? This would be quite disappointing and unprofessional, IMO. Oh, some fans are crazy or delusional about the actors, so let us change our plans? Not really.

There may be arguments why this is not going to happen in the show, but this is something I am not willing to believe.

If it were to happen, then I imagine Ben and Martin would have to have known about it all along. Then they had sort of agreed to it from day one. But if that were something Moftiss were considering adding to the show (and not something they had planned from the beginning), I wouldn't be surprised if both Ben and Martin protested. (Not just because of some crazy Freebatch fans, but mostly because of the crazy media). I just think the strain would be too much and too uncomfortable.

But, of course, I might be wrong. This is just speculation, after all. I don't know what they are really thinking.

Last edited by Vhanja (February 3, 2015 1:47 pm)

SolarSystem · February 3, 2015 1:47 pm

And they could do this in the very last episode (although I'm not sure I'd like that...). Have some more interviews and tv appearances and then the whole thing is over.
I don't think that Steven Moffat especially would let possible fan reactions influence his creativity. Look what tons of Whovians have to say about him and his version of Doctor Who... I think he couldn't care less about stuff like that.

SusiGo · February 3, 2015 1:47 pm

Exactly. Steven Moffat does not strike me as a writer who delivers what the audience wants (or does not want) but what he himself wants to write (same goes for Mark and Steven).

Last edited by SusiGo (February 3, 2015 1:48 pm)

Vhanja · February 3, 2015 1:48 pm

Well, they are both A-listers now. I imagine they have could have a say in it.

(That is actually something I've wondered about, whether Ben and Martin have any influence on the script or how a scene is done).

Liberty · February 3, 2015 1:50 pm

tonnaree wrote:
There are fans out there on the big wide web that think sex would cheapen John and Sherlock's relationship and that bothers me. I agree that it would not automatically be "better" than a platonic love, but it's not less than either.

I was lucky enough to fall in love with a man that I have been very good friends with first. Taking our relationship from the emotional to the physical was just another step in it's progress. It enriched it and made it stronger.

By the same token I have had a very intense, emotionally intimate relationship with my best friend for over 30 years. There has never even been a hint that things could cross over to the physical. But that does not make my relationship with her any more or less valuable or "noble" than my relationship with my husband. They are both important and I wouldn't trade either.

So I don't care if you ship johnlock or not but I really don't like the idea that developing a physical connection between them would be bad.

Damn, how did I get up on this soap box?

I agree that sex doesn't cheapen anything - it's just a different kind of relationship. That's not what I'd feel uneasy about. I think it would be fine to bring it in as a new thing ... that suddenly, they start to feel "that way" about each other. That can happen. What I wouldn't be so happy with would be backtracking and claiming that they felt that way all along but were hiding it. I don't see that in the characters at all, and it WOULD change them for me. (As an example, you'd have John marrying Mary knowing he's "in love" with somebody else - it's not the kind of thing I see John doing).