BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Liberty · February 2, 2015 12:26 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:

And yet all she says after she bought her time with such drastic measure was "You don´t tell him.. don´t tell John!" I seriously doubt if that was worth the wound..

I think that must have been an interim measure - it wasn't something she needed time to say. Before Sherlock gets to a point where he's really fit to "negotiate" he has already guessed the truth and pre-empted her. What we don't find out is what Mary would have done if Sherlock refused to co-operate. It looks like he'd decided not to co-operate, and was scared of what she might do to stop him, so needed to get in first before the "negotiating" started. But I think his words do suggest that negotiating would have been her first option - shooting was the backup plan. The shooting just showed what extreme measures she would go to.

Well, he said he would help her no matter what, so while he might not have been willing to cooperate to Mary´s terms he was still very much on her side, offering support. She could have said "Don´t tell John, I´ll explain later" and flee, to shoot at him first seems to be a strange way to ensure his cooperation. Surely he´s bound to regard her as an enemy afterwards, and he is unsupervised in the hospital, drugged.. he almost gave her away with his first words after partly regaining consciousness. There´s no way she could ensure he wouldn´t talk to John before she got to him, especially if she hadn´t expected the wound to be so grave as to get him into cardiac arrest..?
I accept it might be written like this, I just still find it really hard to embrace the storyline.. You guys arguing against me actually help with that, so please go on..

No, I agree with you - I'm just trying to see it from her point of view IF it was surgery. She did say she'd do anything in her power to stop John finding out, so just saying to Sherlock "Don't tell John, I'll explain later" doesn't seem quite safe enough for something she'd do ANYTHING to prevent. It needs an awful lot of judgment of Sherlock's character, prediction of how he would act, trust, etc. But shooting him acts as a threat as well as buying time. It makes "Don't tell John" much more sinister and compelling.

The trouble is, that the more I think of it, the less I think we're going to get an explanation for all these details. When I look at the previous cliffhangers, they were more of the "how are they going to get out of that?" or "how did he do that?" type. We never got a full explanation of what exactly happened in TRF - loads of questions were unanswered. I have a feeling this is the going to the same.

SusiGo · February 2, 2015 12:32 pm

Lola Red wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
I slightly disagree here. One might argue that the bomb Mary has become ( nicely put btw) gets defused by actually faking trust because she feels safe.
The way I interpret it (and SusiGo please correct me if I am interpreting your position wrongly) the question is whether or not Sherlock believes that Mary is still very close to “going off” and shooting someone when she arrives at the airplane with John.
If Sherlock actually meant what he said at 221B, it can be assumed that Mary was only dangerous as long as she was cornered. Now that she knows that her secrets are safe with Sherlock and John, she is no longer likely to “go off”. To stay with the bomb analogy: with Magnussen gone and Sherlock and John on her side, the explosive agent (the danger of being exposed) has been removed and the bomb is effectively defused.
If Sherlock was acting at 221B, it can be assumed that Mary is just as dangerous when she arrives at the plane as she was when she visited Sherlock in the hospital (which I interpret as the time of greatest danger in her case). She basically stays an unexploded bomb, ready to go off at the slightest upset in her balance. Acting as if he trusted her might have avoided an immediate explosion, but the danger of a delayed detonation is still there.

Well, I was not so much thinking about Mary being a danger as long as she was cornered in connection with her past. My idea about the 221B scene is actually a bit different and may also extend to the tarmac scene:

Mary has made it very clear that she regards everyone coming between her and John as a potential danger. Anyone who could convince/persuade/force John to leave her, for example. In Leinster Gardens this threat is directed at Sherlock. But the moment John himself decided to leave her he would be in danger, too. And I think that Sherlock on the one hand is lulling Mary in a false sense of security while at the same time finding an explanation why she is exactly what John wanted so John is going to stay with her. He keeps trying to deflect John's anger from Mary towards himself. And I think if we regard John leaving her as a danger, then the danger is not over on the tarmac.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 2, 2015 12:33 pm)

mrshouse · February 2, 2015 12:36 pm

Oh no, Liberty, don't say that, it would be so disappointing!
There's the thing I just don't get, and I think Schmiezi already mentioned it: the scene in the empty house. Sherlock looks so repelled if not disgusted. His turning to " sort it out" is so all of a sudden, I didn't get it at all, also if I consider that the shoot is an acceptable option in the way his logic works. But between outing Mary to John with a disgusted look and fully aware of the threat she poses and then practically playing the cupid is way beyond me.

Zatoichi · February 2, 2015 12:36 pm

Liberty wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Liberty wrote:

I think that must have been an interim measure - it wasn't something she needed time to say. Before Sherlock gets to a point where he's really fit to "negotiate" he has already guessed the truth and pre-empted her. What we don't find out is what Mary would have done if Sherlock refused to co-operate. It looks like he'd decided not to co-operate, and was scared of what she might do to stop him, so needed to get in first before the "negotiating" started. But I think his words do suggest that negotiating would have been her first option - shooting was the backup plan. The shooting just showed what extreme measures she would go to.

Well, he said he would help her no matter what, so while he might not have been willing to cooperate to Mary´s terms he was still very much on her side, offering support. She could have said "Don´t tell John, I´ll explain later" and flee, to shoot at him first seems to be a strange way to ensure his cooperation. Surely he´s bound to regard her as an enemy afterwards, and he is unsupervised in the hospital, drugged.. he almost gave her away with his first words after partly regaining consciousness. There´s no way she could ensure he wouldn´t talk to John before she got to him, especially if she hadn´t expected the wound to be so grave as to get him into cardiac arrest..?
I accept it might be written like this, I just still find it really hard to embrace the storyline.. You guys arguing against me actually help with that, so please go on..
No, I agree with you - I'm just trying to see it from her point of view IF it was surgery. She did say she'd do anything in her power to stop John finding out, so just saying to Sherlock "Don't tell John, I'll explain later" doesn't seem quite safe enough for something she'd do ANYTHING to prevent. It needs an awful lot of judgment of Sherlock's character, prediction of how he would act, trust, etc. But shooting him acts as a threat as well as buying time. It makes "Don't tell John" much more sinister and compelling.

Yes, that´s true.. so Sherlock´s "one precisely calculated shot to buy you more time for negotiating my silence" was more an euphemism for "one precisely calculated shot to incapacitate me and threaten me into silence until you figured out how to convince me not to tell John.." Maybe wouldn´t have been helpful during their little domestic.

I agree that we´ll probably never get an explanation..

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 12:39 pm

Liberty wrote:
The trouble is, that the more I think of it, the less I think we're going to get an explanation for all these details. When I look at the previous cliffhangers, they were more of the "how are they going to get out of that?" or "how did he do that?" type. We never got a full explanation of what exactly happened in TRF - loads of questions were unanswered. I have a feeling this is the going to the same.

I fear the same. I think we are going to end up with two or three theories that fit all the “physical” evidence (meaning what we are shown on screen) as well as consistent psychological reasoning. It is fun tough to work them out together. Maybe we can narrow it down to one when we get more information in future seasons, but in the meantime it at least gives us something to do during the hiatus.

mrshouse · February 2, 2015 12:50 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
I slightly disagree here. One might argue that the bomb Mary has become ( nicely put btw) gets defused by actually faking trust because she feels safe.
The way I interpret it (and SusiGo please correct me if I am interpreting your position wrongly) the question is whether or not Sherlock believes that Mary is still very close to “going off” and shooting someone when she arrives at the airplane with John.
If Sherlock actually meant what he said at 221B, it can be assumed that Mary was only dangerous as long as she was cornered. Now that she knows that her secrets are safe with Sherlock and John, she is no longer likely to “go off”. To stay with the bomb analogy: with Magnussen gone and Sherlock and John on her side, the explosive agent (the danger of being exposed) has been removed and the bomb is effectively defused.
If Sherlock was acting at 221B, it can be assumed that Mary is just as dangerous when she arrives at the plane as she was when she visited Sherlock in the hospital (which I interpret as the time of greatest danger in her case). She basically stays an unexploded bomb, ready to go off at the slightest upset in her balance. Acting as if he trusted her might have avoided an immediate explosion, but the danger of a delayed detonation is still there.

Well, I was not so much thinking about Mary being a danger as long as she was cornered in connection with her past. My idea about the 221B scene is actually a bit different and may also extend to the tarmac scene:

Mary has made it very clear that she regards everyone coming between her and John as a potential danger. Anyone who could convince/persuade/force John to leave her, for example. In Leinster Gardens this threat is directed at Sherlock. But the moment John himself decided to leave her he would be in danger, too. And I think that Sherlock on the one hand is lulling Mary in a false sense of security while at the same time finding an explanation why she is exactly what John wanted so John is going to stay with her. He keeps trying to deflect John's anger from Mary towards himself. And I think if we regard John leaving her as a danger, then the danger is not over on the tarmac.

Susi, that makes a lot of sense and would also answer my cross post from above. In the empty house Sherlock realizes the threat Mary poses when having the slightest of fear of losing John thus he decides within a matter of seconds that he must "force" him to stay with her and truly believe why he should do so. That could also make sense regarding that we know next to nothing about the months in which John and Mary did seemingly not speak. And the courious silence in preparing the incident at the empty house and noone knows how Sherlock made John come there.
And furthermore the shooting of CAM as last factor of insecurity regarding Mary -bomb makes sense, so John is definitely safe with her.

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 12:54 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Well, I was not so much thinking about Mary being a danger as long as she was cornered in connection with her past. My idea about the 221B scene is actually a bit different and may also extend to the tarmac scene:

Mary has made it very clear that she regards everyone coming between her and John as a potential danger. Anyone who could convince/persuade/force John to leave her, for example. In Leinster Gardens this threat is directed at Sherlock. But the moment John himself decided to leave her he would be in danger, too. And I think that Sherlock on the one hand is lulling Mary in a false sense of security while at the same time finding an explanation why she is exactly what John wanted so John is going to stay with her. He keeps trying to deflect John's anger from Mary towards himself. And I think if we regard John leaving her as a danger, then the danger is not over on the tarmac.

I know I just recently said that I see quite some “darkness” in Sherlock, but I always felt his affection for John was very much sincere. I just don’t want to believe that he could so something like that to John. Hurt him and leave him - basically destroying him - to safe him? Sure. But hurt him and leave him for a life of constant latent danger? That is too dark even for me. Not saying that you’re wrong, but I have to let that sink in, before my mind can really go there.

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 1:02 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Oh no, Liberty, don't say that, it would be so disappointing!
There's the thing I just don't get, and I think Schmiezi already mentioned it: the scene in the empty house. Sherlock looks so repelled if not disgusted. His turning to " sort it out" is so all of a sudden, I didn't get it at all, also if I consider that the shoot is an acceptable option in the way his logic works. But between outing Mary to John with a disgusted look and fully aware of the threat she poses and then practically playing the cupid is way beyond me.

I would like to know more about your interpretation of that scene, but I cannot find Schmiezi’s post about it. Can you give me the link or tell me about it in a bit more detail?

mrshouse · February 2, 2015 1:10 pm

Schmiezi said that there is nothing for her to see where Sherlock after the shooting and the incidents in the hospital and in the empty house - and Mary is scary there! - actually changes his mind as to see Mary as trustworthy and help her out. That was also my problem, but Susi's interpretation helped a bit.

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 1:11 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Back to the memory stick (which I doubt will turn up again, it was the modern equivalent of the Agra treasure, and now that it's destroyed, the way for John and Mary to be happy together is free): I believe it was originally for Sherlock. Think about it, Mary didn't really want to kill Sherlock. But would have Sherlock agreed to keep quiet about John without knowing truly everything about? I can see her offering the stick in exchange for Sherlock's silence. Along this line:
Sherlock: I'll keep your secret, but you have to tell me everything.
Mary: Everything you need is on this stick. Don't show it to John. It will destroy him.
Naturally this didn't happen so Mary altered her plan and gave it John instead, leaving the choice to him.

That actually makes sense to me, given one accepts Mary is planning to offer Sherlock information in change for silence. In any case it would be a smarter move than just carrying around a USB stick with incriminating evidence randomly for five years or getting it from Magnussen and then not do anything with it for a week.

mrshouse · February 2, 2015 1:16 pm

@Swanpride, there are two things I don't understand in your post: 1) if handing the stick to Sherlock was an option for her she could very easily have done so, he offered to help, never forget that, and he would have been spared pain and life danger.
2) You say he has no reason to help her, yet in the next sentence mention the chain of pressure points leading to her and her safety. I could imagine being John's wife means enough for Sherlock to offer his help to the very end. The question for me is, if Mary holds Sherlock equally dear, which I seriously doubt.

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 1:20 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Schmiezi said that there is nothing for her to see where Sherlock after the shooting and the incidents in the hospital and in the empty house - and Mary is scary there! - actually changes his mind as to see Mary as trustworthy and help her out. That was also my problem, but Susi's interpretation helped a bit.

Thank you. I remember that post. SusiGo’s interpretation does indeed solve that problem. It makes sense again of the things that follow even if you don’t believe Sherlock is being sincere in forgiving and trusting Mary again.

mrshouse · February 2, 2015 1:30 pm

Hm. There are flaws, as far as I can see. I cannot imagine the stick being from CAM as he does not work with hardware. And about not handing the stick because Sherlock already knew too much: so did John, but she gave him the stick anyway.

mrshouse · February 2, 2015 1:41 pm

Ah, that time of the year again...pity...
Not a good idea to go further from here, I think.

Last edited by mrshouse (February 2, 2015 1:42 pm)

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 1:46 pm

Please be careful, this is getting very close to the point where someone might feel offended.

For the USB stick: For some reason Mary has it on her when she goes after Sherlock. Either because she was foolish enough to just keep it around or because she had a plan for it or it was just a slightly cheapish plot device. We are very unlikely to know what is was, but I feel we should be free to discuss the likelihood of any of these options.

Last edited by Lola Red (February 2, 2015 1:51 pm)

SusiGo · February 2, 2015 1:47 pm

Lola Red wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Well, I was not so much thinking about Mary being a danger as long as she was cornered in connection with her past. My idea about the 221B scene is actually a bit different and may also extend to the tarmac scene:

Mary has made it very clear that she regards everyone coming between her and John as a potential danger. Anyone who could convince/persuade/force John to leave her, for example. In Leinster Gardens this threat is directed at Sherlock. But the moment John himself decided to leave her he would be in danger, too. And I think that Sherlock on the one hand is lulling Mary in a false sense of security while at the same time finding an explanation why she is exactly what John wanted so John is going to stay with her. He keeps trying to deflect John's anger from Mary towards himself. And I think if we regard John leaving her as a danger, then the danger is not over on the tarmac.

I know I just recently said that I see quite some “darkness” in Sherlock, but I always felt his affection for John was very much sincere. I just don’t want to believe that he could so something like that to John. Hurt him and leave him - basically destroying him - to safe him? Sure. But hurt him and leave him for a life of constant latent danger? That is too dark even for me. Not saying that you’re wrong, but I have to let that sink in, before my mind can really go there.

No, no, no, this is not what I meant, not at all. I am not a fan of dark Sherlock, quite the contrary.
But in the Baker Street scene Sherlock is quite under pressure because he knows that he is going to collapse soon. Then there comes a big black hole - until Christmas when we see the reconciliation. Mary is still an (ex)-assassin, she is still pregnant and married to John. Nothing has been solved. And then on the tarmac we get basically the same situation as in Baker Street - Sherlock having to leave John with Mary.
Maybe he truly thinks that they can still build a life together. He does what he thinks is best for John. And please remember that he thinks he is going to die. What shall he do? Tell John to leave Mary and his child and be alone again? Return to the situation before ASiP or after TRF? Not really.

Schmiezi · February 2, 2015 1:51 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Think about it, Mary didn't really want to kill Sherlock.

Your post suddenly made me wonder: Why did Mary bring her gun to Leinster Garden?

SusiGo · February 2, 2015 1:54 pm

Good point. IMO she carried it with her to use it. In his condition Sherlock was no physical threat to her. Magnussen was not expected to appear in Leinster Gardens. And if the police had come after her, well … IMO there is no explanation why she brought the gun that does not show her in a negative light.

Last edited by SusiGo (February 2, 2015 2:00 pm)

Lola Red · February 2, 2015 2:02 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Well, I was not so much thinking about Mary being a danger as long as she was cornered in connection with her past. My idea about the 221B scene is actually a bit different and may also extend to the tarmac scene:

Mary has made it very clear that she regards everyone coming between her and John as a potential danger. Anyone who could convince/persuade/force John to leave her, for example. In Leinster Gardens this threat is directed at Sherlock. But the moment John himself decided to leave her he would be in danger, too. And I think that Sherlock on the one hand is lulling Mary in a false sense of security while at the same time finding an explanation why she is exactly what John wanted so John is going to stay with her. He keeps trying to deflect John's anger from Mary towards himself. And I think if we regard John leaving her as a danger, then the danger is not over on the tarmac.

I know I just recently said that I see quite some “darkness” in Sherlock, but I always felt his affection for John was very much sincere. I just don’t want to believe that he could so something like that to John. Hurt him and leave him - basically destroying him - to safe him? Sure. But hurt him and leave him for a life of constant latent danger? That is too dark even for me. Not saying that you’re wrong, but I have to let that sink in, before my mind can really go there.

No, no, no, this is not what I meant, not at all. I am not a fan of dark Sherlock, quite the contrary.
But in the Baker Street scene Sherlock is quite under pressure because he knows that he is going to collapse soon. Then there comes a big black hole - until Christmas when we see the reconciliation. Mary is still an (ex)-assassin, she is still pregnant and married to John. Nothing has been solved. And then on the tarmac we get basically the same situation as in Baker Street - Sherlock having to leave John with Mary.
Maybe he truly thinks that they can still build a life together. He does what he thinks is best for John. And please remember that he thinks he is going to die. What shall he do? Tell John to leave Mary and his child and be alone again? Return to the situation before ASiP or after TRF? Not really.

Sorry, I see I have misinterpreted. The way you put it now makes it clearer (and more relatable) to me. I felt that if Sherlock still felt that Mary was dangerous, he would not have let it get so far as to leave John alone with her. In 221B he had not much choice in the matter, seeing as his heart was giving out, but I feel he would not have risked prison or exile in that case. In shooting Magnussen (deliberately in front of witnesses), Sherlock knew he would be separated from John and I do not believe he would have left John behind if he believed John was still in danger. But the way I read your post now you do not believe that Mary forms a threat for John. Is that right?

Schmiezi · February 2, 2015 2:03 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Because plan A was to make Sherlock believe that she actually would shot him? Or because she wanted to have the option to do so if he didn't give her any other choice? It was certainly not her favourite solution, because in this case, she could have gotten in earlier and easier.

Those are explanations, but I agree with Susi. They don't shed a positive light on Mary I'm afraid.