Just to get started: My original post from the “My thoughts about Mary” thread

Lola Red wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

In the show again and again we get scenes in which people ask forgiveness and are forgiven. Sherlock to Molly, Sherlock to John, I think even Mycroft says sorry at one point or other. We get Sherlock and Janine making up. But in this case there is - nothing. 

If one is to look and listen closely, Mary says to Sherlock, immediately after firing her gun “I’m sorry Sherlock; I truly am.”. So there is an apology there, one can choose to believe it or not, both might be valid. I have made this point some time ago but from Sherlock perspective, it seems in character to accept the apology, even if he might still feel uneasy about it. In TEH we see him perplexed at John’s prolonged anger after he had apologized for faking his death (and his somewhat insensitive reintroduction into his life). It would make sense for him to offer the unquestioning forgiveness he had been denied.

Personally, I can get Mary’s motivation for most of her actions. This is of course speculation, as we are not made privy to her inner thoughts, but I do not think I take any great leaps here. Mary has run away from her past and has built herself a new life. She can not tell anyone about her past, because doing so would invoke the danger of people from her past finding out about her new identity. She meets John, they become a couple and she helps him through a very dark time in his life. I feel it is quite save to assume that the question “Do you live under a false name because you used to be an assassin?” never came up during dating small talk, so when would have been a good moment to bring that fact up? When John told her how devastated he was by his best friend’s death? When said best friend suddenly reappears? I do not say I necessarily approve, but I can understand why she would have never brought that part of her past up. She thought she had left it behind for good.

Then comes Maggnussen: What would happen if he would tell the world who Mary really was/used to be? The life she had build up for herself would be destroyed, very likely she would loose the man she hoped to spend her life with, possibly she herself would be assassinated by the people she was hiding from in the first place, maybe there would be collateral damage among the ones close to her. So she comes to the conclusion that she has to become an assassin again. Again, I do not necessarily approve, but I can understand.

This brings us to just seconds before the shooting. No one can know and she is about to kill a man to ensure that no one will. Suddenly Sherlock is there, telling her that John, too is in the building. I agree with Sherlock’s deduction that she cannot kill Magnussen now, it could fall back on John. But she also cannot let Sherlock walk away now, he has seen her and no one can know. The most logical step would still be to shoot him in the head, ensure his silence, but sentiment does get in the way and she aims lower. I do not quite agree with “surgery”, it was a very, very close call. I think a “fighting chance” is more like it. She takes him out, the acute problem is solved, it is out of her hands now, and she can deal with whatever happens next whenever it happens.

When Sherlock wakes up, Mary realizes she has worked herself into a corner. Like a wounded animal, she lashes out and threatens him (We see a similar reaction in Sherlock in THOB. Both lash out as they loose their sense of security in this world, which for Sherlock lies in the reliability of his own mind and for Mary in the keeping buried of her past.) . How far she would have gone we will never truly know, but to me it seems like her mind is very much stuck at no one can know. It was, after all, what has kept her safe till then. But Sherlock takes that away from her, he lets John know. I think she was stunned from that point until after they arrive in Baker Street and Sherlock points out a truth she and John have failed to see: that John does not love Mary despite her past, but because of it, because he could sense it in her. To me this feels like the point she finally decides to play with open cards. From that moment on until John forgives her at Christmas, her sense of security in the world remained fragile. What if John was so disgusted with her after he found out all of the details that he does in fact stop loving her? Would he hand her over to Magnussen? I fell this is why we see her lash out this one more time in front of the fireplace and why we see her in  such surprisingly high spirits at the plane. For Mary, a nightmare has just ended (and likely neither she nor John know about the suicidal nature of Sherlock’s under-cover mission, so she must have feel relived at how relatively well it all ended).
 
 
I am aware that a lot of my reasoning is based on speculation, so this is purely my personal opinion. As I said I do not necessarily agree with all of the actions of Mary’s character, but this interpretation allows me to see some reasoning behind it, so I thought it might be worth posting.
 
PS Apologies for the mega-post

Thank you for the new thread!

I'm bringing over a post I wanted to reply to:

Lola Red wrote:

Liberty wrote:

The shooting isn't ambiguous enough for me.  It WAS a kill shot, whether that was intentional or not, because Sherlock effectively "died".   He didn't survive because of anything Mary did with the positioning of the bullet, but because of an extremely unusual and unrelated phenomenon (that occasionally people do "come back to life" spontaneously).   He wasn't even being resuscitated at that point.  There is no way Mary could have predicted that. 

I think what we both mean with “kill shot” might be two slightly different things. It was indeed a shot that could potentially kill (and very very nearly did). But it was not a shot whose only possible outcome was certain death (as a shot through the brain stem would have been), which is what I mean with “kill shot”. There is indeed no way for Mary to predict what happens next, which I read as a sort of very macabre passing the ball to Sherlock. It is not even a fair 50/50 chance. But if she wanted to kill him for a certainty, she could have done so just as easily.

Liberty wrote:

The only thing in favour of "surgery" is Mary not shooting the coin in the centre - i.e. that she accidently made a kill shot, when trying to make it an incapacitating shot.  I find that kind of tenuous, but the fact that Moffat wished he'd included something to emphasise that aspect makes me wonder if the intention is for us to believe it.  (And of course, it's possible - it's perhaps actually slightly more plausible than Sherlock rising from the dead).  

As I said, I’m not quite happy with the word “surgery”, because I assume Mary had enough experience to know that there was a chance, but no certainty, for Sherlock to die from his injury. Feels more like Russian roulette to me. But that is the writer’s doing.

Liberty wrote:

I see what you mean about them making moves, but it's still in my mind that Sherlock was risking his life to make his.  It SEEMS as if he thought the chances of Mary kiling him in hospital were actually higher than the chances of him dying by leaving (he seems to think that his heart could well stop).   If they hadn't played up how seriously in danger he was medically - the scene with the paramedics - then it wouldn't feel quite so urgent.   I don't quite understand it.  It would have been safer for him to wait until he was better - even a day or two better.   The only reason for him to take that risk was that the risk from Mary was greater - whether or not she planned to kill him, Sherlock must have thought that she planned it.   If she was going to kill him to stop him telling John, then the only way to stop her was to tell John.  

I believe that Mary was at her most dangerous when Sherlock was hospitalised, more dangerous than when she pointed a gun at him even. She had worked herself into a corner, realised that and was about to do something desperate. Left to her own devices, she was completely unpredictable. And yes, I believe there could have been the possibility of her killing Sherlock after all, or going for Magnussen again, getting herself killed. She could have even gone for John, making sure he would never know. I believe she truly was a loose cannon during that time. I think Sherlock saw that he had to take control over the situation, not just to safe himself, but also to keep John and Mary safe, as he had promised. The only way to do that was to leave the hospital, even if that resulted in him getting worse again. Only after he had stabilised the situation, he could let himself have the time to heal.

Liberty wrote:

I can't quite find a "good Mary" explanation that fits with that.  (Although there may well be one - maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way).
 

I am not sure there is a “good Mary” to find there. I think there is a desperate Mary (and desperate people are the most dangerous, they feel they have nothing to loose). If that makes her good, bad or just human, I cannot say.


 

I suppose I'm using "kill shot" in the wrong way anyway - as a shot that would kill, rather than as a shot that was intended to kill.   The trouble for me, is that as you say, it wasn't anywhere near even a 50/50 chance - it was a shot that Sherlock only survived by a complete fluke, a very rare medical happening that Mary couldn't possibly have predicted.   So if she intended to do the damage that she did, then she must have intended to kill him, I think. 

There is the scene with the coin, with the shot off-centre, which could explain that Mary just missed slightly.  But then I'm not happy with the way that means there are two misses: she deliberately missed so as to spare his life, but then somehow accidentally missed and virtually killed him after all.   And then, by a fluke, it turns out that Sherlock survives a shot that should have killed him.  I don't like all the to-ing and fro-ing!  

I think the main thing that Sherlock could have said to confirm that Mary didn't intend to kill him was that she didn't shoot him in the head.   But we're shown that, rather than told it, as with the coin (although Moffat did say he wished he'd left in a couple of lines that would have explained the coin scene - he said something similar about the perfume scene at 221B, suggesting that in the end, these scenes weren't explicit enough). 

I agree that Mary is cornered - and there's no easy way out of that situation.  Even if she had appealed to Sherlock for help while he was in hospital, or after he was home, would he have been happy to keep that secret from John for ever?   If Mary killed Sherlock in hospital, she could have found some way to get to Magnussen soon after, perhaps, and continued her life with John.   It was very much in her interests for Sherlock to be dead at that point.    It seems that she didn't predict the consequences of Sherlock being alive - that he would help her, and that John would forgive her, and that neither would expose her.   She underestimated their characters - but yes, it makes sense that that would be the way she would think when she was desparate - and that Sherlock was right to be afraid. 

I'm thinking that if the shot had been to the head the intention can only really be interpreted as an intent to kill. A shot to the body (which Sherlock only survived, as already mentioned, by a fluke) leaves the opportunity open for the assailant to claim that they did not intend to kill (even though the overwhelming odds would have been for the shot to have been fatal). It gives a slightly different slant to the act.

And I think that what we get in Sherlock's mind palace confirms that he was convinced that he was going to die, i.e. had been murdered. 

I fail to find something that could have changed his mind, so I tend to believe that he didn't change his mind at all, no matter what he says.

BTW, I think that Sherlock still considers John to be in danger - if John should break up with Mary. (She said it herself, remember? "Because John can’t ever know that I lied to him. It would break him and I would lose him forever – and, Sherlock, I will never let that happen.") I am sure that this is the only reason why Sherlock insists on John forgiving her.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 31, 2015 8:12 pm)

Liberty wrote:

I suppose I'm using "kill shot" in the wrong way anyway - as a shot that would kill, rather than as a shot that was intended to kill.   The trouble for me, is that as you say, it wasn't anywhere near even a 50/50 chance - it was a shot that Sherlock only survived by a complete fluke, a very rare medical happening that Mary couldn't possibly have predicted.   So if she intended to do the damage that she did, then she must have intended to kill him, I think.  

I see your point. My own interpretation actually only differs in one single detail. I believe that Mary was aware of the damage she did: a potentially fatal wound. But I do not interpret it as her intending to kill Sherlock, but she accepts his death as a possible outcome of her actions. It’s only I slight difference and I am not sure I am successful in putting it into words, let me try to illustrate on an example. Say I am holding a cup in my hand. The cup is too hot, not hot enough to cause me to let go of it by reflex, but hot enough to burn my fingers if I keep holding it for one more second. So I let go of the cup and it falls down. I accept that the cup might break due to the fall, but I would not say I had intended for the cup to break. I simply did not want to burn my fingers and as a result of that, the cup might break. If I had intended for the cup to break, I would have thrown it to the ground. The outcome could be the same - a broken cup. But my intention was different- not getting my fingers burned vs. wanting to break something. Translated to Mary’s case this would mean: The outcome might be a dead Sherlock, but the intention was not to kill him, but to prevent him from telling John. It is really only the slightest difference, but for me it makes the difference for being able or unable to understand her actions, whether I agree with them or not.

Liberty wrote:

There is the scene with the coin, with the shot off-centre, which could explain that Mary just missed slightly.  But then I'm not happy with the way that means there are two misses: she deliberately missed so as to spare his life, but then somehow accidentally missed and virtually killed him after all.   And then, by a fluke, it turns out that Sherlock survives a shot that should have killed him.  I don't like all the to-ing and fro-ing!   

I agree with you, it seems far fetched to me. It could be that Mary simply overestimated her skill level, but for some reason that does not ring true with me, though I have to admit I have no evidence for my objections, it’s just a feeling. Maybe because of all the to-ing and fro-ing already going on, I don’t know.

Liberty wrote:

I think the main thing that Sherlock could have said to confirm that Mary didn't intend to kill him was that she didn't shoot him in the head.   But we're shown that, rather than told it, as with the coin (although Moffat did say he wished he'd left in a couple of lines that would have explained the coin scene - he said something similar about the perfume scene at 221B, suggesting that in the end, these scenes weren't explicit enough).  

There is a saying amongst writers that goes something like: Don’t say it, show it. It is actually part of good story-writing, but I agree that this episode might have profited clarity-wise from one or two more explaining sentences.

Liberty wrote:

I agree that Mary is cornered - and there's no easy way out of that situation.  Even if she had appealed to Sherlock for help while he was in hospital, or after he was home, would he have been happy to keep that secret from John for ever?   If Mary killed Sherlock in hospital, she could have found some way to get to Magnussen soon after, perhaps, and continued her life with John.   It was very much in her interests for Sherlock to be dead at that point.    It seems that she didn't predict the consequences of Sherlock being alive - that he would help her, and that John would forgive her, and that neither would expose her.   She underestimated their characters - but yes, it makes sense that that would be the way she would think when she was desparate - and that Sherlock was right to be afraid. 

As I said in the other thread, I believe that Mary was at her most dangerous while Sherlock was hospitalised and she was bound to do something desperate. So I absolutely agree with you that Sherlock had every right to be afraid of her during that time. I do think that Magnussen had upped his security by then though, so I do not think she would have survived another attempt to kill him. But that might have not stopped her from trying. I believe her being so out of control was why Sherlock had to interfere long before he was actually well enough to do it. I also agree with you in that I, too, think that Mary underestimated Sherlock’s willingness to take her case and John’s willingness to forgive her past.

Liberty wrote:

So what changes his mind?  I suppose it's just the fact that Mary didn't kill him in hospital.  And of course, he'd have found out that Magnussen was alive and also that Magnussen hadn't turned Mary in, which would give him a clue to her thought processes.   Along with that he moves from thinking John is in danger to thinking that Mary will protect John. 

Schmiezi wrote:

I fail to find something that could have changed his mind, so I tend to believe that he didn't change his mind at all, no matter what he says. 

I’m not sure if “changing his mind” is really what happened. He knows he had been shot - by Mary. When he wakes up in the hospital, he gets a new piece of data: He is still alive. I believe that Sherlock deduced that the only reason why he was still alive was because Mary left him a chance to survive, however small that chance was. I am not sure his declaration of “She saved my life” is the most accurate description, but she did not kill him, even though she had the means to do so. She injured him, gravely, very nearly fatally, but she did not kill him. He does admit that there are indeed “mixed massages”, but I think he knows that now he and John have found out the truth about her and have shown no inclination to expose her, she is no longer a threat to them.
 

SusiGo wrote:

Very interesting thoughts. 

Just one remark that still does not sit well with me. If they wanted us to believe Sherlock's words about Mary saving his life by calling the ambulance why did they include the three seconds consciousness line which clearly contradicts his later explanation?

I always thought that this scene was supposed to be a deduction from Sherlock, not a memory, so he would not have to be conscious at the time when the call is placed. The “alternative turn of events” where Mary kills both Sherlock and Magnussen is shot in the same manner, and that clearly is a deduction, so it actually never occurred to me that this last bit was supposed to be a memory
 
Thank you for moving the thread, btw

 

Lola Red wrote:

My own interpretation actually only differs in one single detail. I believe that Mary was aware of the damage she did: a potentially fatal wound. But I do not interpret it as her intending to kill Sherlock, but she accepts his death as a possible outcome of her actions.

I do get what you're saying.  I suppose my issue is more with the way it was filmed - I think that in that case, I'd rather have Sherlock survive without appearing to die, but for it to be made clear that he had an x% chance of dying.   The fact that he effectively died and it appeared that he had a 0.00001% (or whatever it is!  This article found 38 cases in the medical literature, and only 14 of them survived and left hospital with neurological recovery) chance of surviving, makes it seem impossible that Mary was giving him a chance of life, IF the damage she'd caused was what she intended.  And in that case, her method for stopping him telling John was killing him.  She might as well have shot him in the head, because the chance of surviving the chest shot was so unpredictable.

(But I think the coin is supposed to show us that she may have caused more damage than she intended.   I think that has to be the case if it's going to fit Sherlock's surgery explanation). 

As I said in the other thread, I believe that Mary was at her most dangerous while Sherlock was hospitalised and she was bound to do something desperate. So I absolutely agree with you that Sherlock had every right to be afraid of her during that time. I do think that Magnussen had upped his security by then though, so I do not think she would have survived another attempt to kill him. But that might have not stopped her from trying. I believe her being so out of control was why Sherlock had to interfere long before he was actually well enough to do it. I also agree with you in that I, too, think that Mary underestimated Sherlock’s willingness to take her case and John’s willingness to forgive her past.

Yes, by not killing Magnussen Mary has put herself in a very dangerous situation.  In a way, the sensible (for an assassin) thing for her to do would have been to sneak off and kill Magnussen while John was making his decision (it might have been difficult, but I think she's meant to be world-class).   The main problem would be that Sherlock and John would guess who'd done it, and although they seem to accept her intention to kill Magnussen, they're maybe not quite ready to accept that that's the only way to deal with him, if she actually did it.    So she's left waiting for months, during a time when she knows Magnussen has plans for her (and she's pregnant).   Maybe there's some recognition of that in Sherlock's words to John to tell Mary she's safe now. 
 

Lola Red wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

Very interesting thoughts. 

Just one remark that still does not sit well with me. If they wanted us to believe Sherlock's words about Mary saving his life by calling the ambulance why did they include the three seconds consciousness line which clearly contradicts his later explanation?

I always thought that this scene was supposed to be a deduction from Sherlock, not a memory, so he would not have to be conscious at the time when the call is placed. The “alternative turn of events” where Mary kills both Sherlock and Magnussen is shot in the same manner, and that clearly is a deduction, so it actually never occurred to me that this last bit was supposed to be a memory
 
Thank you for moving the thread, btw

 

Yes, definitely, I think it's a deduction.  That's the way his mind works.  And I think for the audience, it works well that it's shown that way - this is what Sherlock deduced, rather than this is what Sherlock remembered - it's a Sherlock Holmes story after all!   He deduced that Mary had called the ambulance because of the timing - it must have arrived three minutes after John called it instead of eight (he'd have had that information from John) and as Mary had knocked Magnussen out at that time, she was the only one who could have called it.   Some of the other stuff, he deduces because of the fact that Mary left Magnussen alive - why would she do that?  So yes, I think it's all deduction.