BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Liberty · January 30, 2015 6:33 pm

Yes, thanks for that view, LolaRed. Good point about Mary apologising. I think that actually sounds genuine.

Of course, she could be apologising for being about to murder him.   But there's one thing makes me think she doesn't want him dead, and that's that it would have been so easy for her to kill him in hospital (edit- crossposted with you, Swanpride!).   Now, I do think she's threatening at the hospital - she's terrifying!   And in Sherlock's mind palace too - very scary.   But she's a nurse and an assassin, a perfect combination for bumping somebody off in hospital - if she really wanted him dead, he would be dead.

There would be a risk that Magnussen would tell when there was a murder involved, but if he didn't tell when he saw what looked like a murder, then he might well keep quiet for longer, if it was useful to him. (Of course, Mary wouldn't be as useful to him with Sherlock dead, but I don't know if Mary has made that connection yet).

Anyway, it might have been that factor that made Sherlock realise that Mary wanted him alive. (Although it's still slightly at odds with him risking his life to tell John - I thought that was to protect himself from Mary).

As for forgiving - I just don't know.   His morality is a little odd, although very much there. The Camden garrotter story was a strange one - that he could think somebody who had killed people, made families bereaved, etc., could not only be forgiven but was actually better than anyone else because of his charity.    It's not a huge leap to think that somebody who gravely wounded somebody to protect themselves could be forgiven. He has much more hate for Magnussen than murderers/assaulters per se (Doyle's Holmes is able to forgive murder and even cover it up!).

Last edited by Liberty (January 30, 2015 6:34 pm)

Schmiezi · January 30, 2015 6:39 pm

Swanpride wrote:
The thing is if Mary truly wanted to kill Sherlock, she had another chance at the hospital. She is a nurse, she could have taken him out easily with no one being wiser. To me all what she says in the empty house about being ready to everything necessary to keep John from the truth sounds a lot like postering. Desperate posturing. Let's be realistic here, even if sherlock hadn't set up the stage and instead just agreed to keep her secret, it would have never been safe for her. Killing Sherlock is at this point the only way to keep the truth from John, and yet, she doesn't do it. Because she likes Sherlock but above all, she knows what this would do to John.

Still, she does cause terrible pain. I would have loved to see her being sorry about it.

Lola Red · January 30, 2015 6:53 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Killing Sherlock is at this point the only way to keep the truth from John, and yet, she doesn't do it. Because she likes Sherlock but above all, she knows what this would do to John.
Still, she does cause terrible pain. I would have loved to see her being sorry about it.

I agree, I would have also loved to see John get mad at her for shooting his best friend, he seems very preoccupied with the having been lied to part (which I find the more understandable one of the two offences). He only mentions the shooting in trying to shut Sherlock up about forgiving Mary. As I said, for me, somehow, it makes sense for Sherlock to very quickly accept an apology, but we know from TEH that this is not how John works. He has to work through the issue before he can offer forgiveness. Yet the shooting part is never mentioned again after Sherlock collapses in Baker Street. I, too, would have wished for some more resolution on screen there, but more to understand John’s train of thought.

Zatoichi · January 30, 2015 7:46 pm

Swanpride wrote:
The thing is if Mary truly wanted to kill Sherlock, she had another chance at the hospital. She is a nurse, she could have taken him out easily with no one being wiser. To me all what she says in the empty house about being ready to everything necessary to keep John from the truth sounds a lot like postering. Desperate posturing. Let's be realistic here, even if sherlock hadn't set up the stage and instead just agreed to keep her secret, it would have never been safe for her. Killing Sherlock is at this point the only way to keep the truth from John, and yet, she doesn't do it. Because she likes Sherlock but above all, she knows what this would do to John.

I don´t think she could have killed him that easily in the hospital.. she is a nurse, yes, but how should she have aquired a substance in this little time that would safely kill him, and long enough after her visit so no one would suspect her? Break into the hospital pharmacy? It´s not that easy, and John is still waiting outside the room.

Lola Red · January 30, 2015 7:56 pm

Swanpride wrote:
No, that's not true....when Sherlock gives John advice while breaking down John's first answer is "she shoot you".

But I guess for John the shooting is for Sherlock to forgive. The lying is what he has to accept.

I just rewatch it to be sure I'm not talking nonsense. During the whole Baker Street scene John is very angry about being lied to, as is indeed his right. The fact that something has happened to Sherlock only comes up after they all have sat down and started talking when Sherlock explains that they can trust Mary, because she saved his life. John asks him how (“Sorry what?”…”How did she safe your life?”), so Sherlock explains. John questions could be translated to “She did not safe you, she shot you”. So you are right, there is some mention, albeit in between the lines, and John does seem upset. Personally, I just would have wished it would have been more included in his initial rage, as in “She is the woman who is carrying my child, who has lied to me from the moment we met and shot the most important man in my life.” Something like that. It just always seemed to me that Sherlock was so incredibly important to John that he would react stronger and more immediately to him getting that gravely injured. John is already coming down from his range when there is the first mention of the shooting and the only time it is directly is in protest to Sherlock’s insistence that they can trust Mary. In those last seconds I assume that anger is no longer really John’s nr.1 emotion, as he has just realise that his best friend is bleeding out in his arms.

I guess you are right when you say that the shooting is first and foremost Sherlock’s to forgive. I, personally, just would have loved to see how protective John can get of Sherlock. We learn how protective Sherlock is of John later in that episode; I just feel it would have made a nice story arc (as well as an interesting piece of character development for John).

Last edited by Lola Red (January 30, 2015 8:12 pm)

Vhanja · January 30, 2015 8:10 pm

I agree on that last bit. I am a bit surprised that John isn't more protective and angry about Sherlock being shot and almost dying. To me, I feel Sherlock and John have never been more distant to each other than in HLV.

lil · January 30, 2015 8:27 pm

OT a little....but I think a lot of the messy , nonsensical @ far fetched Mary storyline, as it is , has had an obvious and detrimental effect on the Sherlock fan base..and it's popularity.
They need to tidy it up somehow or it could become the shark surfing move .

tonnaree · January 30, 2015 8:28 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I agree on that last bit. I am a bit surprised that John isn't more protective and angry about Sherlock being shot and almost dying. To me, I feel Sherlock and John have never been more distant to each other than in HLV.

When we see John greet Mary at the hospital he is wearing the same clothes he had on when he and Sherlock went to CAM's office. It seems he never left Sherlock's side after discovering he'd been shot.

When John and Lestrade discover that Sherlock has left the hospital the only thing John focuses on is finding him.

John may have seemed distant from Sherlock at the begining of HLV but his actions in the second half show concern, protectiveness and dare I say it, love.

Vhanja · January 30, 2015 8:32 pm

tonnaree wrote:
When we see John greet Mary at the hospital he is wearing the same clothes he had on when he and Sherlock went to CAM's office. It seems he never left Sherlock's side after discovering he'd been shot.

I just wished they had shown some of that, shown a scene of John sitting by Sherlock's side. Can you imagine if something like this happened in S1 or S2? I am convinced a bed-side John scene would be included then.

tonnaree · January 30, 2015 8:39 pm

Vhanja wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
When we see John greet Mary at the hospital he is wearing the same clothes he had on when he and Sherlock went to CAM's office. It seems he never left Sherlock's side after discovering he'd been shot.
I just wished they had shown some of that, shown a scene of John sitting by Sherlock's side. Can you imagine if something like this happened in S1 or S2? I am convinced a bed-side John scene would be included then.

It would've been lovely. But it can't be easy trying to decide where to cut stuff down to fit in the 90 minute time frame. I sure wouldn't want the job.

Vhanja · January 30, 2015 8:40 pm

True. I just want the caring and protective John back, and the angry and resenting John gone. *pouts*

Liberty · January 30, 2015 8:49 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
I don´t think she could have killed him that easily in the hospital.. she is a nurse, yes, but how should she have aquired a substance in this little time that would safely kill him, and long enough after her visit so no one would suspect her? Break into the hospital pharmacy? It´s not that easy, and John is still waiting outside the room.

I think it's possible - she's a resourceful killer who appears to have kept her gear. Who's to say it didn't include poisons and other methods of killing than guns? It wouldn't even necessarily need drugs (an air embolism springs to mind, in fiction, at least), but if she wanted to get anything into his body, he already had lines in place. Insulin seems to be a common method in real life and would be quite easy to administer surreptitiously to somebody so ill. I'm sure Mary would have other, more inventive methods. Maybe something slow acting and indetectable. She had a little bit of time after the shooting to plan (while she was changing) - and it's just possible that she rushed back to kill him, but changed her mind for some reason. Then she'd have quite a lot of time while he was in hospital.

Of course, it's possible that she did want to kill him, but wanted to wait until he was out of hospital. That would certainly explain why Sherlock HAD to set up the Leinster Gardens scenario while he was still supposed to be in hospital. I would be happy for that to be the explanation, especially if they explained why she'd waited (presumably less chance of getting caught) - but it would be a big risk to leave him alive all that time in hospital when he might have told John.

Last edited by Liberty (January 30, 2015 8:53 pm)

Zatoichi · January 30, 2015 8:58 pm

An air embolism shortly after she visited would be pretty suspicious and Insulin and other common hospital drugs can be easily detected.. but yes, in case she had kept her assassin-super-poisons it would have been possible.

Liberty · January 30, 2015 9:17 pm

They're just examples (I don't think the air embolism has actually been used in real life), but the truth is that there have been cases of serial killer nurses getting away with quite a few killings before being caught, and using a variety of substances. Even if the death looked a bit suspicious, Mary wouldn't be an obvious suspect, unless there was some other clue (like CCTV evidence). I don't really buy that she just wasn't able to kill him in hospital. Given that there was such a huge risk that he might talk while in hospital, either she was waiting to do it later, or she wanted him to be alive, I think.

Last edited by Liberty (January 30, 2015 9:18 pm)

Vhanja · January 30, 2015 9:27 pm

Well, he was close to dying. So close that he was, more or less, dead for a few seconds. So it might not be too suspicious if his heart gave out after all and he died in his sleep?

Zatoichi · January 30, 2015 9:40 pm

I don´t think she went to the hospital with the plan to kill him and then just wasn´t able to do it.. but I think it might be possible she didn´t think it would be necessary, she only learned Sherlock pulled through when she arrived - and by then the time could have been a bit short to prepare a waterproof hospital-kiiling.

Just playing with thoughts here, I think it´s pretty clear from the audio-commentary that Moftiss´ideas about Mary are pretty close to the thoughtful comment Lola Red posted earlier.
The deleted scene in which it is shown that Mary feels hunted by Sherlock also speaks for that version, and explains why she brought a gun to Leinster Gardens.. not to shoot him but to defend herself.

Vhanja · January 30, 2015 9:44 pm

I don't think she planned to kill him either. If that was what she wanted, she could have made sure she killed him when she shot him.

Zatoichi · January 30, 2015 9:59 pm

Well, she almost did, that he survived after flatlining was nothing short of a miracle.. there are additional reasons of not killing him immediately one can think about, besides wanting him to pull through. But I guess it´s no longer of use to speculate about them now, as the makers made their intentions for Mary pretty clear. Just from watching the episode it hasn´t been that clear to me, and I´m still struggling to come to terms with it..

Vhanja · January 30, 2015 10:05 pm

Well, they did show her killing him directly as an alternative solution she could have gone for, but - as Sherlock put it "sentiment got the better of her".

Zatoichi · January 30, 2015 11:09 pm

When I watched the episode I saw it like:

She wanted time to get away. so she delayed his death until she would be safe.
She didn´t think he´d pull through so comes to the hospital quite cheeful just to learn he can speak again and already said her name.. unable to do something about it in that moment she just threatens him for now.
If Sherlock hadn´t taken the precaution of her face projected on Leinster Gardens she would have finished him instantly.
Conclusion: She really wanted to kill him.

I don´t insist I´m right anymore, but I´m still convinced the episode gives us much to get that impression.