nakahara wrote:

In all those moments mentioned above, we got to understand Sherlock´s motivation through storytelling. We knew why he acted that way. We could connect and relate to him.

No such case with Mary. We never see into her motivation - and her shooting Sherlock lacks any. Sherlock doesn´t figure everything out about her in hospital - in fact, he has one of the scariest visions of her, dressed in her femme fatale clothes, taunting him, menacingly defying him... and after this Sherlock suddenly claims it was surgery, Mary saved his life etc.

It´s as if two storylines (in both of which Mary was a different character) were just mechanically connected together without neccessary connections concerning psychology of the characters and chronology of the story being made.

This story really cannot be taken as it is outwardly presented to us. It cannot be taken at face value. Because it just doesn´t hold in this form.

Very true. And I like your arguments because they are logical and based on what we see in the show. The narrative - as fantastic as it may be - has to obey an inner logic in order to be convincing. And this is what the face value version of this episode lacks. 

Sherlock is made to suffer in the worst possible way and we are meant to believe he simply forgives the unrepentant and dangerous person who did this? Not really. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 30, 2015 12:09 pm)

Zatoichi wrote:

I can kind of see Sherlock thinking that way.. but I can´t see Mary thinking the same way. She is supposed to be the normal one, the one understanding of human nature, the warm one who helps troubled neighbors and parents Sherlock (*shudder*).. the one who says to Sherlock "do you have any idea what you did to him?" in the restaurant.. the one who has an idea of the moral implications of what someone does. The one who left her old life behind her because she did it reluctantly and doesn´t want to do bad things anymore. You´d think such a person still would feel the need to apologize, explain herself or at least show some concern about the wellbeing of her victim? If not to Sherlock, than at least to John? We can assume it happened off-screen.. but we have to assume quite a lot already about her good intentions. We have to assume she was in panic or her assassin senses just got the better of her, we have to assume Sherlock´s story is correct and Mary called 911 although he couldn´t have seen it, we have to assume she doesn´t mean any harm when she threatens Sherlock in Leinster Gardens again, and that she is a crack shot who still accidentally brought her good friend to the brink of death.. I don´t know, for me it´s just too many assumptions with too little to build them up upon. With Sherlock we witness him saving John´s life several times and being troubled by bad things that happen to him by his fault or others` fault.. we just don´t witness the same with Mary. There is not one warm or pleading look between the shoot and christmas. We have Sherlock´s words, that´s all.. and Sherlock´s words have a history of not always being the most reliable ones..

I see what you mean. And, of course, perhaps there is more to it. Perhaps S4 will show that Sherlock hadn't forgiven her and something else will come out of it.

But if not, I'm fine with it as is. I just assume that Mary is a bit like Sherlock when it comes to that. Perhaps she sees that he doesn't need an apology, so she won't make one.

Doesn't the scene with Mary in hospital feel threatening to you? Not at all?

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 30, 2015 1:38 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

Well, I extend that same courtesy to Sherlock. He doesn't seem to mind, so why should I?

For me that's not the point. If I understood, within the inner logic of the show, why it is that Sherlock forgives Mary, then I could accept it. I don't think I'd like it, but if it somehow made sense to me... fine. But it doesn't make sense to me, at least not at this point. Maybe it'll make sense after S4, but right now it's just wrong.
 

And the fact that they filmed an almost identical scene with the villain.

Someone who at this point can be called an antagonist entering Sherlock's room and humiliating/threatening a completely helpless man seems at least highly similar to me. Not identical, but parallel. And this is a show which constantly uses parallels and mirrors and comparisons so this is not coincidental. 

Btw, I have no idea if they left it out because it would have given Sherlock killing Magnussen a different or additional motive or because they found it repetitive or whatever. But it was filmed and they chose to share it with us so it is legitimate to mention it in here. 

Oh, I would love to dicsuss that scene in general, it's an awesome - and horryfing - scene. But I see it as a very different scene than the scene with Mary. And so does Sherlock - if he had viewed Mary as Magnussen, one of the few people he honestly hates, he certainly wouldn't have protected and helped her anymore. And certainly wouldn't have defended her towards John.

tonnaree wrote:

I can't wait to see how S4 affects all the mary discusions.

I agree. I for one am just along for the ride. Wherever Moftiss takes this, as long as it's well-written (which it has all been so far, in my opinoin), I'm onboard. It's their show, and what I've seen so far has made me trust their decisions.

SusiGo wrote:

In the show again and again we get scenes in which people ask forgiveness and are forgiven. Sherlock to Molly, Sherlock to John, I think even Mycroft says sorry at one point or other. We get Sherlock and Janine making up. But in this case there is - nothing. 

If one is to look and listen closely, Mary says to Sherlock, immediately after firing her gun “I’m sorry Sherlock; I truly am.”. So there is an apology there, one can choose to believe it or not, both might be valid. I have made this point some time ago but from Sherlock perspective, it seems in character to accept the apology, even if he might still feel uneasy about it. In TEH we see him perplexed at John’s prolonged anger after he had apologized for faking his death (and his somewhat insensitive reintroduction into his life). It would make sense for him to offer the unquestioning forgiveness he had been denied.

Personally, I can get Mary’s motivation for most of her actions. This is of course speculation, as we are not made privy to her inner thoughts, but I do not think I take any great leaps here. Mary has run away from her past and has built herself a new life. She can not tell anyone about her past, because doing so would invoke the danger of people from her past finding out about her new identity. She meets John, they become a couple and she helps him through a very dark time in his life. I feel it is quite save to assume that the question “Do you live under a false name because you used to be an assassin?” never came up during dating small talk, so when would have been a good moment to bring that fact up? When John told her how devastated he was by his best friend’s death? When said best friend suddenly reappears? I do not say I necessarily approve, but I can understand why she would have never brought that part of her past up. She thought she had left it behind for good.

Then comes Maggnussen: What would happen if he would tell the world who Mary really was/used to be? The life she had build up for herself would be destroyed, very likely she would loose the man she hoped to spend her life with, possibly she herself would be assassinated by the people she was hiding from in the first place, maybe there would be collateral damage among the ones close to her. So she comes to the conclusion that she has to become an assassin again. Again, I do not necessarily approve, but I can understand.

This brings us to just seconds before the shooting. No one can know and she is about to kill a man to ensure that no one will. Suddenly Sherlock is there, telling her that John, too is in the building. I agree with Sherlock’s deduction that she cannot kill Magnussen now, it could fall back on John. But she also cannot let Sherlock walk away now, he has seen her and no one can know. The most logical step would still be to shoot him in the head, ensure his silence, but sentiment does get in the way and she aims lower. I do not quite agree with “surgery”, it was a very, very close call. I think a “fighting chance” is more like it. She takes him out, the acute problem is solved, it is out of her hands now, and she can deal with whatever happens next whenever it happens.

When Sherlock wakes up, Mary realizes she has worked herself into a corner. Like a wounded animal, she lashes out and threatens him (We see a similar reaction in Sherlock in THOB. Both lash out as they loose their sense of security in this world, which for Sherlock lies in the reliability of his own mind and for Mary in the keeping buried of her past.) . How far she would have gone we will never truly know, but to me it seems like her mind is very much stuck at no one can know. It was, after all, what has kept her safe till then. But Sherlock takes that away from her, he lets John know. I think she was stunned from that point until after they arrive in Baker Street and Sherlock points out a truth she and John have failed to see: that John does not love Mary despite her past, but because of it, because he could sense it in her. To me this feels like the point she finally decides to play with open cards. From that moment on until John forgives her at Christmas, her sense of security in the world remained fragile. What if John was so disgusted with her after he found out all of the details that he does in fact stop loving her? Would he hand her over to Magnussen? I fell this is why we see her lash out this one more time in front of the fireplace and why we see her in  such surprisingly high spirits at the plane. For Mary, a nightmare has just ended (and likely neither she nor John know about the suicidal nature of Sherlock’s under-cover mission, so she must have feel relived at how relatively well it all ended).
 
 
I am aware that a lot of my reasoning is based on speculation, so this is purely my personal opinion. As I said I do not necessarily agree with all of the actions of Mary’s character, but this interpretation allows me to see some reasoning behind it, so I thought it might be worth posting.
 
PS Apologies for the mega-post
 

Bottom line though is that we know very little for sure about Mary.  And the things we don't know could fill volumes.

Last edited by tonnaree (January 30, 2015 7:09 pm)