BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The comprehensive Johnlock guide (Johnlockers only)

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 3:55 pm

Oops.

mrshouse · January 27, 2015 3:57 pm

Rude mods, you....
In here we have to be there for each other when nobody else does...

Vhanja · January 27, 2015 4:07 pm

I might be way, way off here, but after seeing the pilot yesterday (for the first time), I started thinking.

There were some comments about BBC wanting to showcase a more gay show, if I understood it correctly. And someone argued that if that show had been Sherlock, it would have been more openly gay from the start.

Ok, now let me tell you - I might have my doubts about all the fan analysis and stuff, but watching the pilot I was almost sitting there with my jaw to the floor. That pilot was a mix between romantic drama and fanfiction! If the pilot was made with a man and a woman in the lead, everybody would expect them to develop a relationship in the next few episodes, I'm sure of it.

Now, that was toned down for the main series. So my wild speculation is: Could it be that the pilot was made to be that gay BBC show mentioned? And then, for whatever reason, a decision was made either against the idea completely, or to tone it down to keep the supsense longer?

mrshouse · January 27, 2015 4:10 pm

Thank you, Vhanja, what you mention here is the story telling arc some of us refer to. And the imbalance of recognizing romantic tropes when it comes to mixed or same sex couples.

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 4:14 pm

Vhanja, I think it was the second option. They liked the pilot immensely and said, go on and make three 90 minute episodes. And probably more. But then we need a story arc instead of the main characters kissing in episode 2 and stumbling into bed in episode 3. And this is what we got.
(This film is known as "The Gay Pilot" for reasons.)

Vhanja · January 27, 2015 4:15 pm

I've seen gay porn less gay than that pilot.

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 4:16 pm

Vhanja · January 27, 2015 4:19 pm

If there was anything that could convince me that this show was meant to be gay, it's not any metas or analysis - it's the pilot. I mean... it's all there already!

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 4:50 pm

I do not think the show as such is about being gay. For me it tells the complicated love story of two people who perfectly complement each other. A classic trope actually. And as I said before, no one would ever doubt their love if one of them was a woman.

And I love these guys - look what they did in the Sherlock Chronicles. Of all photos they could have chosen to accompany this quote they take the one in which Sherlock does not dare to hug John back:

http://watsonlovesholmes.tumblr.com/post/109308866140/teaandforeshadowing-interesting-photo-choice

Last edited by SusiGo (January 27, 2015 5:01 pm)

tonnaree · January 27, 2015 6:31 pm

Be still my beating heart.................

Sherlock Holmes · January 27, 2015 8:46 pm

Wow, I'm almost convinced! You guys are so convincing.

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 8:54 pm

What can we do to fully convince you?

ancientsgate · January 27, 2015 9:29 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I do not think the show as such is about being gay. For me it tells the complicated love story of two people who perfectly complement each other. A classic trope actually. And as I said before, no one would ever doubt their love if one of them was a woman. ........

I think you're right, Susi, that the show is not about being gay, not at all.

Perhaps this is me playing devil's advocate, but it IS possible for two men to have a deep and abiding love for one another that's not expressed sexually. Which I think is what TPTB are trying for in the actual show. We johnlockers like to imagine it as "more", both in our own fantasy lives and in the fan fic that we love to write and read so much, but the sexual aspect isn't necessary in order to validate Sherlock and John's great mutual love.

We're not used to seeing two men portrayed in that way in movies and on TV. We're used to men being rivals for some woman's attention and brawling like adolescents trying to kill each other to get the breeding rights to some woman (*rolls eyes* I hate that sh**). And we're used to them drinking together, watching sports together, eating junk food together, committing crimes together, etc. But a true working friendship, all-for-one-and-one-for-all, based on mutual respect, fondness and understanding? Those kinds of images are almost totally missing from the mass entertainment scene.

Is it any wonder that TPTB created a johnlock sensation right from the pilot? Or that so many rabid watchers of the show climbed on the johnlock wagon while whole droves of others wouldn't go there if you paid them?

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 9:38 pm

Well, for me the idea of a non-sexual relationship creates one problem: I (and I suppose many others) want to see them in an exclusive relationship. Not John desperately dating like he did until the end of ASiB, not Sherlock walking home alone from weddings or going to his death to save other people's lives. I want to see them happy with each other and together. In the same flat.

Vhanja · January 27, 2015 9:42 pm

Please don't take my comment as if I've said that the show is about being gay. That's not what I meant.

Also, I agree fully with ancientgate's analysis here.

SolarSystem · January 27, 2015 9:42 pm

@Susi: In the same bed. (And no, it's not only about sex... but please, those two guys together in the same bed... holding each other... being together... waking up side by side...)

Last edited by SolarSystem (January 27, 2015 9:42 pm)

SusiGo · January 27, 2015 9:48 pm

No worry. There are many gay elements in the show and we get quite a lot of different characters that are gay which is fine.
But the relationship between Sherlock and John what for me it is first and foremost a love story about two people who have to overcome obstacles of all kinds before finally getting together. And the idea to choose a story which for decades by many has been regarded as a love story between two men is quite obvious.

ancientsgate · January 27, 2015 10:35 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Well, for me the idea of a non-sexual relationship creates one problem: I (and I suppose many others) want to see them in an exclusive relationship. Not John desperately dating like he did until the end of ASiB, not Sherlock walking home alone from weddings or going to his death to save other people's lives. I want to see them happy with each other and together. In the same flat.

I get that in fan fic, so don't need to see it in the show. In fact, I'd prefer not to. I'm okay with a deep friendship thing on the show, rather than see TPTB force something, just "because". I guess I don't trust the writers and showrunners to do it in a way I'd like? Maybe.

But I feel that way about M/F ship too. I don't want to see M/F shippy junk in my TV shows either. I just want the writers to just tell us good stories, without any sexual component between the unmarried lead characters, no matter the gender.

I know, I'm probaby weird, for a johnlocker. I imagine all of us want something a bit different, which IMO only is why those writers need to just not go there with S/J.

And as an added thought, I'll agree that they laid on the angst a bit too hard for me in S3, both from Sherlock's POV and from John's and from Mary's. I like a bit of angst, but it really was heavy-handed and I didn't enjoy most of it.

Harriet · January 27, 2015 10:48 pm

Please go back to topic, this discussion belongs to the other thread.

tonnaree · January 28, 2015 2:13 am

SolarSystem wrote:
@Susi: In the same bed. (And no, it's not only about sex... but please, those two guys together in the same bed... holding each other... being together... waking up side by side...)

And Sherlock hogging the blankets and being the little spoon and John nuzzling Sherlock's neck and stroking his hair while he sleeps and Sherlock actually sleeping because he feels safe and secure in John's arms and..........and...................*sob*

*clutches John Watson bear and crawls back to corner*