BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean · January 9, 2015 5:45 pm

Sorry, I got to the other thread first.
EDIT(to try and stay off the other thread)...
Is this because I'm a technophobe...
Why does it appear to be Tumblr?

Last edited by besleybean (January 9, 2015 7:34 pm)

A lovely light · January 24, 2015 11:25 pm

I remember here the discussion why someone would have still in our days problems to find out his sexuality or to come out and that i brought the argument that the army is not quite a very accepting place ( i based that on the army from another country). Today i found this article, which i find quite interesant ( i didn't know for example that till 2000 the homosexuals were banned from tha army) : http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2924893/I-m-coming-gay-says-married-Army-general-hit-bigots-threatening-career-father-s-served-Iraq-Afghanistan-senior-soldier-declare-sexuality.html .

besleybean · January 24, 2015 11:31 pm

Well John's not gay...
Even if he had been, he could have come out as soon as he left the army.

tonnaree · January 24, 2015 11:35 pm

Being in the military could certainly have affected John dealing with his sexuality.

A lovely light · January 24, 2015 11:50 pm

The way i see the show, i don't see Watson as gay or bi.

My point was generally with the idea that a homosexual nowadays would have very easy to come out, which i think even with the big progress in western countries, is still not so easy to do. It is very dfficult to come out when you have already a certain age and got through some bad experiences. For example, the person in article had problems to accept himself that he is homosexual and did that when he was over 30 and already married. A homosexual / bisexual leaving the army could come out as soon as, but it doesn't mean that he should or that he could overcome his own demons very quick (as a kid i live in a country where food was scarcely, we were not hungry as in Africa, far from, but it was a daily struggle to have better food than potatoes, there are now over 25 years and i still have food reserves in my home and i panic when i don't have).

besleybean · January 25, 2015 8:30 am

Ok.This is 21st century Britain.
John was ex-army, 30 something, single, doesn't seem especially religious and with no close family ties(or partuclarly close friends)when we meet him...
Why on Earth would he not come out?
Apart from anything else, it would have given him a social life!
Being gay/bi is never easy and in some countries it's virtually impossible...without persecution.
That is reality.
This TV show was written by an out gay man...
So I'm struggling to see the issue here.

Last edited by besleybean (January 25, 2015 8:31 am)

tonnaree · January 25, 2015 9:38 am

Coming out can be stressful and emotional no matter what your situation. My daughter grew up knowing her family had gay people in it and gay friends and that they were loved and accepted. She grew up in a time when there were more positive gay role models in the media than ever before and it was still hard for her to come out to all of us.

One thing with John is that we do know so little of his preivious life and family background. We don't know what personal or professional things might have held him back.

Liberty · January 25, 2015 9:47 am

And whether people see it as accurate or not, the world shown in Sherlock is not a homophobic one.   For instance, there are lots of references to John and Sherlock being a couple, but none of the people who make them seem to be disapproving of homosexuality, and John and Sherlock don't seem to be offended by the implication.

In real life, I know it's a little different, and there are still homophobic people around.   But it is a minority view in the UK now, and disapproved of. There are anti-homophobia laws.   Civil partnerships, and now, same sex marriage have made same sex relationships part of the establishment. I know there's a way to go, but there has been a lot of progress. It's difficult to control what individuals think and do, but I think the big institutions and government (and royalty!) supporting same sex relationships is actually huge (and it's what I'd always wanted and campaigned for) - people have to go against the tide to be homophobic now, instead of it being built into the system (as it was in the past).

Anyway, John doesn't strike me as closeted - he's pretty fearless in some ways. But even if he'd kept quiet in the army, he'd have had no reason to once he was out. There are plenty of openly gay doctors. But the point is, we don't get given anything to show that he would be closeted.

SusiGo · January 25, 2015 10:56 am

tonnaree wrote:
Coming out can be stressful and emotional no matter what your situation. My daughter grew up knowing her family had gay people in it and gay friends and that they were loved and accepted. She grew up in a time when there were more positive gay role models in the media than ever before and it was still hard for her to come out to all of us.

One thing with John is that we do know so little of his preivious life and family background. We don't know what personal or professional things might have held him back.

Indeed. I imagine that even people who grow up in a tolerant environment may have problems in facing and accepting their sexual orientation. And as we get no backstory we do not know how his parents or others reacted to Harry being gay. Harry is one of the big blanks in the show so far as is John's past as a whole. We only get glimpses - Mike Stamford and Sholto. Nothing more.

And another thing that has been mentioned before - I do not think that John is gay but bisexual. That probably he has regarded himself as straight and now must face the fact that he is being attracted to a man. Or that he has always had these feelings but has suppressed them. (And please do not ask me to provide proof of him being attraced to Sherlock because we have been over this again and again.)

besleybean · January 25, 2015 11:14 am

I personally would have thought Harry's alcoholism was a bigger issue...or maybe even if there was an unseemly split with Clara,,,but anyhow...
Yeah, well I see no evidence for John being bi...but even if he is:
We have been told we are not going to see Sherlock and John together.

Last edited by besleybean (January 25, 2015 11:14 am)

Vhanja · January 25, 2015 11:17 am

To me it makes no sense that John is gay. If he was, he wouldn't be as interested in women as he is.

SusiGo · January 25, 2015 11:18 am

Did you read my post?

Vhanja · January 25, 2015 11:29 am

Yeah, I wasn't replying to your post specifically, just in general to the topic of whether John is gay or not.

besleybean · January 25, 2015 11:32 am

This isn't directed at any individual.
But I do say...
I love the sense that the Johnlockers eventually had to concede they were flogging a dead horse with the John is gay thing and so grasped at the straws of bisexuality,.
Can I also point out that Mark is one of those who has said he dosn't really think bisexuality exists...
I disagree with him, but his comments have caused some discussion.
I mean I get his point , but I just thought I'd say,...
Johnlock continues to facinate me.
I still think somebody should write a paper on the desperation of female fans to see two hot male leads getting it on.
This is TV, the cameras linger on their faces and the words are said for effect...It's not real life, it's a representation.
I come from a the background of both organised religion and radical politics...I recognise mass delusion when I see it.
That I have learned to live with, every day of my life(though constantly fight against it).
What I find difficult is people not accepting what Mark says, when he speaks out loud and clear, from the heart,against the backcloth of a baying mob of silly fan girls.
When the fans think they know better than the team and don't accept the team's vision...that is the problem.

Last edited by besleybean (January 25, 2015 11:34 am)

Liberty · January 25, 2015 11:40 am

I don't think he's supposed to be bi either. We see him dating people over the course of years - it would be so easy to make one of them a man if they wanted us to think of him as bi, but that hasn't been done.

Vhanja · January 25, 2015 11:40 am

besleybean wrote:
When the fans think they know better than the team and don't accept the team's vision...that is the problem.

I agree with this, and it's actually quite similar to what Martin said about it. He said something to the likes of: If it's for fun, he doesn't mind at all, but for him it crosses the line when it becomes "political". When fans think they know better, and that their version is better. When it becomes "stalinist", as he called it. When people take it too seriously and it isn't done for fun anymore.

And I agree with that, that is exactly how I view it as well. I would love to see Johnlock, I have a clear image of it in my head and why I can see it in the show. I love to read good fanfics of it, and find their relationship to be realistic and lovely. But I am also sober enough to understand that it will probably never happen in the show, and that whatever I see and analyse is more or less just in my head because I want it to be.

For me, it's for fun, a little spice in everyday life. But I see some fans taking this very seriously, becoming angry at Moftiss for what they do or don't do. Some being so convinced that Johnlock will happen that I am not sure how they will react when it doesn't. And I personally think that is taking this way too far. And the end of the day, this is just a tv-show. It's entertainment. We don't own it and we don't have any right or entitlement to whatever direction the writers want to take it. I feel some fans lose perspective sometimes.

At first I didn't understand how Martin could use a word like "stalinist" for something that to me is so easy-going and fun as shipping and fanfics. But after a few months in the world of Johnlock fandom, I have no trouble understanding what he meant. And I think that is sad.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 25, 2015 11:42 am)

SusiGo · January 25, 2015 11:43 am

Mod's note: Besleybean, I hope you aware of the fact that his - while not being directed at any individual - may be taken as offensive by many members of this board and for various reasons.

Btw, here is what Mark has said about bisexuality:
"I had a girlfriend before I ever had a boyfriend, but it was just a phase. I think a lot of people who say they are bisexual aren't. I loved her dearly and we had a very nice time, but on the Kinsey scale, I would say I was always predominantly gay."
source: http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/23/mark-gatiss-family-values

Please note that he does not say that bisexuality does not exist. One may agree or disagree with his views, but this quote does say nothing about him including a bisexual character in his work or not.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 25, 2015 11:53 am)

SolarSystem · January 25, 2015 11:49 am

besleybean wrote:
desperation of female fans to see two hot male leads getting it on.
mass delusion
baying mob of silly fan girls.

Lovely. Just lovely. And I'm glad you didn't address anyone in particular with that.

besleybean · January 25, 2015 11:49 am

@Vhanja Thank you dear and this is just it for me and sorry for this sounding like a manifesto or a creed but:
I would have loved for BBC Sherlock to go with a gay romp...they didn't.
I ADORE the concept of Johnlock.
I rarely look at the vids, but I have read some fan fic and I look at the fan art,.
I have my own personal Johnlock fantasies which I love.
But I have the sense to understand they are inspired by a show and don't reflect it.
I do not have so little respect for the team or the show that I try and impose my own vision upon it.
They do not always do what I like, but I accept it is their vision and not mine.

Last edited by besleybean (January 25, 2015 11:57 am)

besleybean · January 25, 2015 11:50 am

But is anything I have said untrue, Susi?