I don't think the final problem is about survival for Moriarty. He kills himself to trap Sherlock, his line of reasoning indicating that he was removing the last "way out" for his adversary. It's like a game of chess. Moriarty called checkmate but Sherlock called it to be just a check, Moriarty's mistake being that he thought Sherlock would not do whatever he needed to get the snipers recalled. When Moriarty realized this, he tried to mate again by countering this strategy the only way he could, by killing himself. Moriarty in fact calls just "staying alive" boring.

To me, the final problem is that they both can't live, the two great hero and the great villain, which is different. Neither alive is still a victory for Moriarty. He didn't care for his own life. He didn't care about wealth or power. He threw away 30 million quid to get Sherlock's attention. He looked for distractions.

To echo kazza, to say Sherlock just survived the fall seems a bit farfetched for such a methodical strategist. In the canon, Sherlock never fell, there was no body recovered, and the fall was not seen by anyone mentioned in The Final Problem (The Empty House modified this). I think the creators believe they outdid Conan Doyle in part because there WAS a body recovered and Sherlock still survived a jump in broad daylight amidst John and a crowd. To have Sherlock actually jump, as in the Game of Shadows movie, seems a bit pedestrian and a significant deviation from canon.

Last edited by Lupin (July 29, 2012 8:42 pm)

Davina wrote:

Lupin I have to say I agree entirely with your analysis. The analogy of the game of chess has been brought up previously (almost inevitably) and is a perfectly sound one.

Thank you. :D I found myself mostly just reiterating things people have brought up previously. I started rather late in the game. I only saw the episode last week.

That's true, despite their patent unpopularity. 

That is true. There is something to relish about being controversial even when you don't intend to be. 

Ha, I admit I have shortened my replies after reading some of your responses. It does save time on typing. 

The Final Problem is how to definitively win the Great Game they are playing ( see chess analogy above). Disgracing Sherlock and forcing him to destroy himself is the solution. More fool Moriarty.

Good point.

I TO TALK AGREE. U JUST GAVE ME THE IDEA OF THE THIRD PROBLEM!

tobeornot221b wrote:

I think the "final problem" is to solve two problems at the same time:

(Bit tricky for me to express my thoughts in English. You should see me in a German discussion…! )

Both, Sherlock and Moriarty, want

1. Staying alive without dying of boredom
The tea party at 221b in TRF isn't the first conversation between Sherlock and Moriarty on this subject. Several phone calls and remarks in TGG (though through a "stolen" voice from Moriarty) about the puzzles hint at this:

LESTRADE: Why would anyone do this?
SHERLOCK:  Oh…I can't be the only person in the world that gets bored.

VOICE OF HOSTAGE AT PICCADILLY CIRCUS: This is about you and me…because I'm bored…we were made for each other, Sherlock.

VOICE OF OLD LADY HOSTAGE: You are enjoying this, aren't you?

JOHN: So why is he doing this, then? Playing this game with you. Do you think he wants to be caught?
SHERLOCK: I think he wants to be distracted.
JOHN: Oh…I hope you'll be very happy together.


2. Staying number one (Moriarty more than Sherlock:"…you should see me in a crown!"/ Sherlock's deerstalker isn't exactly a crown… )

TRF, rooftop

JIM: Here we are at last – you and me, Sherlock, and our problem – the final problem. Stayin’ alive! It’s so boring, isn’t it? …It’s just ... staying… All my life I’ve been searching for distractions. You were the best distraction and now I don’t even have you. Because I’ve beaten you.): It was easy. Now I’ve got to go back to playing with the ordinary people. And it turns out you’re ordinary just like all of them.

Earlier, at the pool scene, Jim isn't quite sure yet whether to destroy Sherlock (and John) right away or just send them "a friendly warning" not to be in his way any longer. He admits that he has enjoyed "this little game of ours". Fortunately the ringtone postpones his decision: "Wrong day to die…!"

Jim knows that killing Sherlock will destroy the basis for an interesting life in the future.
A boring life for him isn't worthwhile.
But it is also not acceptable for him to be beaten.

Solving these two problems at the same time is his dilemma.
The only way out he sees for himself is his suicide. The only
satisfaction he has is that he is convinced that has destroyed Sherlock's reputation and life as well.

Here's what we know. 1) Sherlock didn't know what the final problem was when Moriarty asked him in 221B. 2) Sherlock figured out what the final problem was after he and John fled from the police and chased Brook/Moriarty out of a window. 3) Whatever the final problem was, when Sherlock figured it out, he was able to deduce that Moriarty would try to get Sherlock to kill himself (and most likely that Moriarty would kill himself as well).

The final problem is not "getting Sherlock out of the way", it's more than that. Simply killing Sherlock is far too simple. If that were the problem, A) Moriarty could've solved the problem by killing Sherlock and B) Sherlock would've known that was the problem when Moriarty asked him if he knew what the final problem was in 221B. But he didn't know it, not until they were in the street after chasing Brook/Moriarty out the window - then, he knew what the problem was, evidenced by the fact that his next stop was to see Molly and let her in on his imminent death. He realized what the problem was but doesn't explain it to anyone on-screen.

The problem IS "staying alive", but not like one might think. Moriarty needed to do more than kill Sherlock. He had to destroy Sherlock Holmes. And as a psychopath and a murderer, Moriarty could only satisfy his obsession by dying with the object of his obsession. He needed to destroy Sherlock and Moriarty, and he would accomplish this by creating Richard Brook, killing himself (thereby cementing the identity of Richard Brook), and forcing Sherlock to commit suicide, completing the full defamation of Sherlock Holmes. 

Sherlock figured out what the final problem was when he realized what the final move of Moriarty's plan would be, given Moriarty's evident goal to destroy his reputation. What Sherlock didn't know was how, when, and where Moriarty would make his final play. So, Sherlock brilliantly took control of the situation by anticipating Moriarty's move and gave him the 'where', and therefore also, the 'how'. He knew Moriarty would force him to commit suicide, so obviously, on top of a hospital, odds were that Moriarty would try to get him to jump. Sherlock texted Moriarty where the final showdown would take place, but then he waited for Moriarty to tell him when he was ready to meet, giving Moriarty sufficient time to develop his plan for fixing their final problem on top of St. Bartholomew's.

As Sherlock explains in the third season, there were multiple possible scenarios in which they might've found themselves atop the hospital, so some improvisation would be needed. But Moriarty's death wish was evident over the seasons based off of he and Sherlock's interactions. Sherlock anticipated Moriarty's suicide (how could he not, what with Moriarty's constant despairing of life); knowing what the "final problem" was, Sherlock would need to play one last game with Moriarty, wherein he would find the stalemate Moriarty was desperate for him to discover.

And there it is. The final problem was "staying alive", and the solution was a permanent stalemate where Moriarty destroyed Sherlock (his destruction made final with his death) but not without Sherlock forcing Moriarty to kill himself. To actually defeat Sherlock and be allowed to continue living, doing what he does, being a "consulting criminal", was not an option. The only way he felt he could rest in peace was for both he and Sherlock to go down in flames together.

When I set out to type all this out, I really thought it'd be easier, requiring fewer words. Sorry if it was all a bit 'rambly'.

Logically, I would prefer Moriarty to be dead.
But because I love him so much, I will accept if he's alive.
In which case,either of Susi's options would suit me!

I'd thought that Sherlock talked Moriarty into suicide (the Lazarus plan wouldn't have worked if Moriarty was alive, so his death must have been part of that plan).  I hadn't thought about it the other way round, that Sherlock knew Moriarty was planning suicide and played along.  Interesting!  And that would obviously fit better with Moriarty faking his suicide, if indeed he did.