BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

besleybean · January 6, 2015 9:24 am

I think the final scene on TSOT is sad and it's meant to be...but it also shows Sherlock as who he really is, a loner, who lives for his work.
I can see that separately from the John issue.
Sherlock loves John and he misses him.
But I do feel he accepts that John has found the woman he wants to spend his life with.
I also think Sherlock genuinely likes Mary.

Last edited by besleybean (January 6, 2015 9:25 am)

mrshouse · January 6, 2015 9:26 am

Yes! I loved Sarah! She was lovely with John!

SusiGo · January 6, 2015 9:29 am

So did I, especially her holding her ground without getting overly sassy or patronising or whatever. They made a great trio if there has to be one.

Liberty · January 6, 2015 9:29 am

SusiGo wrote:
Yes, I fully agree, Zatoichi. This is why I also have problems with the "drama queen" scene. I know it is meant to be funny but I somehow do not feel at ease with it. Of course Sherlock loves his drama but in the end he is the one who saves Sholto's life, and he never gets as much as a thank you for it (although before he went on and on about John saving lives. It is a fact that Sherlock has saved people's live over and over in the show). Mary knew the room number but it was Sherlock who deduced the killer's method and, even more important, persuaded Sholto in an emotional approach to open the door.
I know very well that they could not keep John's fervent adoration forever but I would have preferred a bit more respect for Sherlock's abilities and a little less patronising and jokes at his cost.

The bit about saving lives - I completely agree! That line really grates! I hate the way Sherlock puts himself down in the speech, as if he can't compliment John without denigrading himself. And John has lots of genuine qualities that Sherlock could talk about - instead he talks about ones that aren't John's best feature (the saving lives, but also the fact that John putting up with him - no, they both get something special out of the relationship).

The "drama queen" comment, I don't mind so much. They do tend to say serious things through insults to each other - and this is actually emphasising Sherlock's strength. He's not just a machine - he functions better when he's trying to save people.

Vhanja · January 6, 2015 9:35 am

I don't have a problem with the drama queen scene, I think it was quite appropriate. It's a development in John, from acting like a doormat and fanboy to really getting to know Sherlock and what makes him tick. His care for Sherlock isn't just about being in awe of his skills, but knowing full well all the weaknesses and bad sides of Sherlock - and still loving him. To me, that is a sign of a developing relationship.

I personally think it's about time Sherlock was seen for what he was, and not all his flaws, arrogance, snark and weaknesses being ignored and John being used as an awed doormat.

SusiGo · January 6, 2015 9:36 am

This is not quite the right thread but I think it shows - as do elements of the mind palace as well - that while Sherlock has a very high opinion of his mental faculties, he does not think much of himself as a person. He regards himself as an unlikeable man who is appreciated, if at all, for his brain but not for anything else. Which may be caused my Mycroft's overly strong influence on him.

SusiGo · January 6, 2015 9:38 am

Vhanja wrote:
I don't have a problem with the drama queen scene, I think it was quite appropriate. It's a development in John, from acting like a doormat and fanboy to really getting to know Sherlock and what makes him tick. His care for Sherlock isn't just about being in awe of his skills, but knowing full well all the weaknesses and bad sides of Sherlock - and still loving him. To me, that is a sign of a developing relationship.

I personally think it's about time Sherlock was seen for what he was, and not all his flaws, arrogance, snark and weaknesses being ignored and John being used as an awed doormat.

I do not agree at all. This scene comes after everything Sherlock has done for John and Mary and the wedding. It comes after the wonderful speech, after organising everything, after endlessly praising John - and then when Sherlock does not function immediately he is called a drama queen. I think my problem is the context - had John said it in series 1 or 2, fine. But here it feels inappropriate to me.

Vhanja · January 6, 2015 9:55 am

Yeah, I see what you mean. The timing is a bid bad, I'll agree to that. Sherlock doesn't really seem to mind that much, though. Also, I don't think John could have said something like that in S1 or S2, because their relationship hadn't developed that much by the time.

(To be honest - he IS a drama queen, though).

Zatoichi · January 6, 2015 10:02 am

Actually I never saw John as an awed doormat or a fanboy.. he compliments Sherlock and defends him (and yes maybe lets him order him around a bit too much in the beginning), but they already argue quite a lot, he leaves when Sherlock goes too far and by the end of S2 he already knew Sherlock´s weakness for showing off and being a smart-arse. I think he already found his place and value next to him and brought his own strenghts into their relationship.. for me there was absolutely no need to "put Sherlock in his place" or "show him for what he was..(aka just a drama-queen?)" The end of S2 feels like loving him in spite of all his flaws ("No one could fake being such an annoying dick all the time."), S3 feels like mocking his flaws and quirks in order to feel superior.

SolarSystem · January 6, 2015 10:36 am

Liberty wrote:
I know the writers think that he would love to take over the details of organising a wedding - well, my version of Sherlock wouldn't . (And in fact, Doyle's Sherlock is fairly dismissive of it, to the point of being bitter - not gleefully throwing himself into stationery and napkins!)

I disagree here, I'm reading this whole wedding planning business a bit differently. And it's more or less the only time I agree with Mary: Sherlock is doing all this stuff because he's scared. Yes, I really believe he's scared that things between John and himself will change yet again because of the marriage. Of course he would never talk about it, he would never admit it, but deep down inside of him it's there. So he tries to occupy himself and also tries to stay in control at least a little bit by throwing himself into the planning of the wedding. I don't think he's doing this because he's crazy for weddings or because he loves to plan a wedding.

SolarSystem · January 6, 2015 10:45 am

SusiGo wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
I don't have a problem with the drama queen scene, I think it was quite appropriate. It's a development in John, from acting like a doormat and fanboy to really getting to know Sherlock and what makes him tick. His care for Sherlock isn't just about being in awe of his skills, but knowing full well all the weaknesses and bad sides of Sherlock - and still loving him. To me, that is a sign of a developing relationship.

I personally think it's about time Sherlock was seen for what he was, and not all his flaws, arrogance, snark and weaknesses being ignored and John being used as an awed doormat.
I do not agree at all. This scene comes after everything Sherlock has done for John and Mary and the wedding. It comes after the wonderful speech, after organising everything, after endlessly praising John - and then when Sherlock does not function immediately he is called a drama queen. I think my problem is the context - had John said it in series 1 or 2, fine. But here it feels inappropriate to me.

I've said it before and I'll just say it again: I have made my peace with the "drama queen" because in my head canon John says it because he's scared as hell that he might lose another friend (after having lost Sherlock for two years). He might be overreacting a bit and I agree that the term "drama queen" comes a bit out of nowhere. But I can't be cross with him about it because I think he's in exceptional circumstances here and just wants to try to get Sherlock to solve it and save Sholto's life.

besleybean · January 6, 2015 10:52 am

Good point and I'm sorry I'd missed you saying this before.

mrshouse · January 6, 2015 10:54 am

Was there dislike for Sarah? Interesting. I think she was way closer to what John looked for than Mary will ever be. She had a really nice chemistry with John. She just didn't have enough screen time... And in my opinion Mary is much more the poor lamb into which just everything has to be cramped: loveliness, beauty, humour, deep understanding of just anything but also being exciting and interesting. Way too much for me. And I'm not sure what I have to understand concerning emancipation here. Being snarky and dominant? Running around with a gun? Outsmarting just everybody? Saying how cool for the baby to have an assassin and an adrenaline addicted father, so there's nothing to fear? No thank you. Sarah was a lady.

Vhanja · January 6, 2015 10:55 am

Of course, being a drama queen isn't all Sherlock is, but I don't think anyone can deny the truth of that statement in general.

I do agree, though, that John's anger and accusation comes a bit out of the blue in that scene. As Solar says, it can be because of being so upset with almost losing Sholto. And as we have seen, John seems to default to anger when experiencing strong and terryfing emotions.

So I think that just as John accepts Sherlock for who he is, Sherlock does the same with John.

tykobrian · January 6, 2015 11:04 am

Guys, when Sherlock said in HLV Mary acquired the name Mary Morstan what did he mean? Like did she somehow legally change her name to Morstan and made new papers like drivers license and such? How easy is it to do so? I suppose it was easier when she was supposedly a government intelligence officer because the they'd arrange that for her. But as a freelance assasin can she do that so easily, completely change her identy? I really have no practical knowledge in these matters. Love to hear what are the ways in your respective countries. This thing popped in my mind when one of my friends told me that if during the registration process of John and Mary's wedding it's revealed that Mary Morstan is an alias their marriage woul've been void. So I guess Mary didn't half-ass her identity change?

Vhanja · January 6, 2015 11:06 am

Perhaps she took the name while still being employed as a government intelligence and kept it as a freelancer? Or if she took the name later, she probably had contacts to help her with the paperwork. In Norway it's not that big of a deal to get your name changed, generally speaking. You just have to fill out a form and make sure the surname isn't protected (and that the first name isn't too ridiculous).

Last edited by Vhanja (January 6, 2015 11:07 am)

SusiGo · January 6, 2015 11:11 am

Sarah was emancipated enough for me, thanks very much. And clever. And all this without running around and shooting people. But she stood no chance because Sherlock was there and I think she realised this. Clever girl. Which is why John had to sleep on the lilo.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 6, 2015 11:12 am)

SusiGo · January 6, 2015 11:13 am

Swanpride wrote:
There was a lot of Sarah bashing in certain parts of the fandom (not in this forum, as far as I remember), so bad that even I defended her.

The whole assassin thing aside, Mary is way more lovely compared to Sarah. She is the type person who is so invinting that scared neighbors would turn up at her doorstep at an impossible hour for support. She correctly analyses Sherlock's scared behaviour and encourages John to do whatever necessary to lessen his fears (what else is she suppose to do? Cancel the wedding?). And everytime she asserts herself (like when she throws the "you are pregnant" argument back into John's face) I want to applaud her, because she adresses stuff which would bother me, too.

Accepting someone else like he or she is is nice, but relationships are work. You always have to compromise one way or another. And this works only when both participants are ready to give into the needs of the other from time to time. Before TSoT we have never seen Sherlock doing this for John.

And when have we ever seen Mary give in to John's needs? For honesty, for example?

besleybean · January 6, 2015 11:14 am

Well they've not had a lot of time and I'm prepared to accept much of this happened out of shot.
But anyway, that's up to John and not me.

mrshouse · January 6, 2015 11:16 am

Never? Like always being scared to death whenever John is in a threatening situation? And to be honest, the turning up of the neighbor mainly shows that John misses his old life and that in HLV there is another Mary altogether and not so nice. And thus is what we get for the hiatus.
And concerning the " You can't go" dialogue, nit everything that has to be considered in real life partnerships works great in a show on screen and is needed. Just saying.