BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

nakahara · January 5, 2015 2:25 pm

And why did the casual gay spectator wrote this, after watching the S1:

http://www.thagomizer.net/2010/08/sherlock/

Oh, wait... I know now. She is delusional. Case closed.

silverblaze · January 5, 2015 3:37 pm

That wasn't the point. The author says she understands that they're not intentionally queerbaiting, yet still she thinks they should take responsibility for the queerbaiting they didn't do. Just because some other people read it into it. That's different.

silverblaze · January 5, 2015 3:42 pm

Read the second thing now. Yeah, I can see why Watson's 'I'm not gay' joke gets irritating to people.

Though I find calling Mark self hating pretty stupid.

nakahara · January 5, 2015 3:49 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Read the second thing now. Yeah, I can see why Watson's 'I'm not gay' joke gets irritating to people.

Though I find calling Mark self hating pretty stupid.

Of course that Mark is not self-hating, but as you can see, the random person who watched the show and happens to be gay found these kind of jokes stupid + found it incredible that the gay people in the show were portrayed as evil. And because she is nor a fan nor a Holmesian she cannot be accussed of being delusional, blinded by shipping, hating Moftiss etc.

silverblaze · January 5, 2015 3:53 pm

Well, I didn't call her that. In fact I've never called people that. That accusation really doesn't make sense to me.

nakahara · January 5, 2015 4:02 pm

I didn´t say that you personally were calling her names. I just wanted to point out that some third party, uninvolved with the fandom (and thus not having the afforementioned thaits of which fans are often accused of), can recognise queerbaiting too in this context.

Liberty · January 5, 2015 4:09 pm

It's interesting that the writer sees queerbaiting but not Johnlock.

Maybe they just haven't got the right balance. I think that not to give a nod to the shipping thing might be odd (and also might be interpreted in a negative way) - they're writing about a couple who people have traditionally put together, and they are often in settings where people would assume they're lovers (living together, obviously, but going for meals together, going on holiday together). If it wasn't acknowledged in some way, it would be the elephant in the room! Maybe they've just gone too far in the direction of acknowledging it.

And then there's the comment about the gay jokes referencing The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes. That made it a lot clearer to me, but I can also understand that not everybody is going to pick up on that (I didn't). In Private Life, there's a John Watson who is panicked and angry at the thought of being considered gay and who desparately wants Sherlock (who appears to be gay) not to be. In BBC Sherlock, you've got John making it clear that "it's fine" right from the beginning, and not being bothered by people making assumptions (which are never negative). Knowing that gives me more understanding of the repeated "jokes".

But I do think it's a shame if it genuinely offends people.

Liberty · January 5, 2015 4:26 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Very much this:
What kind of representation do you care about?

The kind provided by John “my wife shot my best friend but I’m still married to her because even a lying, trigger-happy spouse of the opposite sex is better than having to consider the option of a same sex parter or living alone” Watson and Sherlock “I sacrificed everything for my friend’s heterosexual nuclear family because that’s the only thing I’m good for anyway” Holmes?

I do agree that it wouldn't be "good" representation. It's actually one of the reasons I don't think Johnlock is happening - I really don't think the writers would make them closeted/in denial.

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 4:28 pm

Liberty wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
Very much this:
What kind of representation do you care about?

The kind provided by John “my wife shot my best friend but I’m still married to her because even a lying, trigger-happy spouse of the opposite sex is better than having to consider the option of a same sex parter or living alone” Watson and Sherlock “I sacrificed everything for my friend’s heterosexual nuclear family because that’s the only thing I’m good for anyway” Holmes?
I do agree that it wouldn't be "good" representation. It's actually one of the reasons I don't think Johnlock is happening - I really don't think the writers would make them closeted/in denial.

Actually, I think Sherlock is already past denial. It's John who is a bit late to the party.

besleybean · January 5, 2015 4:43 pm

Why can't you accept John only loves women that way?

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 4:48 pm

Because I know so many people who started "only" loving women or men until suddenly they didn't.

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 4:50 pm

Besides, "I usually love women, but I fell in love with you anyway" is one of the most romantic things you can say, don't you think?

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 4:56 pm

Aaaawwwww.....
Actually, that is what I wanted to portray a bit in my fic....

Last edited by mrshouse (January 5, 2015 4:57 pm)

besleybean · January 5, 2015 4:56 pm

I do. But I don't think it'll happen in BBC Sherlock.

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 4:58 pm

We'll always have AO3.

No, I do believe we'll see it. Since S3 I am sure. But if it will be in S5 or S10 ... Who knows.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 5, 2015 5:00 pm)

besleybean · January 5, 2015 4:59 pm

What's that?

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 5:01 pm

What, my blunt nod to Casablanca?

besleybean · January 5, 2015 5:05 pm

I don't even know if I've ever seen that right through.

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 5:31 pm

Casablanca is a classic.

SusiGo · January 5, 2015 5:33 pm

And the tarmac scene is a nod to Casablanca.