BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Liberty · January 5, 2015 9:52 am

Vhanja wrote:
But if we want to know if the work was meant to be A or B, there will be no better source than the author. How can there be?

Yes, if we're going to know what was meant, that's true. If we found a genuine manuscript written by Shakespeare, giving his own views on his writing, then of course people could continue to interpret and perform his works in various ways, but if they wanted to know what he originally meant, they'd go to the manuscript.

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 9:53 am

Harriet - Not exactly. But I have a master degree in sociology of religion, which includes a lot of interpretations, philosophy, understanding of text in the time and culture it was written, text analysis, sociology, sociocultural impacts etc.

Schmiezi - I have no problem at all with people voicing different views and interpretations than what the creators have. I tend to have one myself.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 5, 2015 9:53 am)

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 9:55 am

Vhanja, could you please give an example of what you feel is double standard here?

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 9:57 am

mrshouse wrote:
Vhanja, could you please give an example of what you feel is double standard here?

Mary gets criticised for reading a book without looking guilty.
Sherlock gets excused and defended for putting John in a traumatic situation where he thinks he will die to get the forgivesness he wants.

Mary gets criticised for being snarky.
Sherlock's constant snark for nine episodes gets either completely ignored or handwaved as "that's just the way he is",

That's two examples of the top of my head.

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 10:00 am

Who criticized Mary for reading a book? She was criticized for being friendly around elderly people whose son she almost killed and she was criticized for handling the reconciliation scene snarky. In its respective thread Sherlock has very much been criticized for being manipulative, you might want to read there. And at least he does ask for forgiveness. Thrice.

Harriet · January 5, 2015 10:03 am

Vhanja: Thanks for your reply!

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 10:04 am

As I mentioned, I have only seen that trend in this thread, not other threads.

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 10:05 am

Sorry, I don't see it.

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 10:08 am

And Sherlock wasn't exactly the best in the reunion of him and John either. Budging in on the proposal, cracking horrible jokes, showing little to no regard of John's feelings. I would say he was worse than Mary.

My point isn't that Sherlock is horrible and Mary is great. I LOVE Sherlock, with all his faults and weaknesses. What scares me a bit is when his faults and weaknesses are trivialized, excused and handwaved. I don't think that is healthy.

nakahara · January 5, 2015 10:09 am

Vhanja wrote:
As I mentioned, I have only seen that trend in this thread, not other threads.

Well, we have this other thread called "Why we love Mary" where you can enumerate all her good qualities ad infinitum.

I thought that the thread "My thoughts about Mary" is not just a repetition of "Why we love Mary", but a thread, where you can discuss also her characteristics that seem problematic or shady, without the need to diss other characters in the show "for balance". But I erred, so it seems. Only hagiographies of Mary are alllowed here as well.

Last edited by nakahara (January 5, 2015 10:10 am)

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 10:10 am

nakahara wrote:
Well, we have this other thread called "Why we love Mary" where you can enumerate all her good qualities ad infinitum.

I thought that the thread "My thoughts about Mary" is not just a repetition of "Why we love Mary", where you can discuss also her characteristics that seem problematic or shady, without the need to diss other characters in the show "for balance". But I erred, so it seems. Only hagiographies of Mary are alllowed here as well.

Not sure where you get these thoughts from, I haven't seen anyone write anything close to what you say here. You might have misunderstood where I and others are coming from.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 5, 2015 10:11 am)

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 10:10 am

Well, stating a kind of reasoning as not healthy is for me similar to being called hateful or disturbing. Personal and way off topic and a bit of smacking over the head.
Ready for discussions again when you are, ladies.

Last edited by mrshouse (January 5, 2015 10:13 am)

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 10:13 am

Not my intention to be personal or smack anyone over the head. It's just the kind of thinking I see in those who are abused, excusing away the behaviour of the abuser. That is why I said it isn't healthy to trivialize and handwave away horrible behaviour.

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 10:19 am

Again, we should keep in mind that we are talking about fictional characters here.

Abuse in real life is a completely different topic.

nakahara · January 5, 2015 10:21 am

Vhanja wrote:
Not my intention to be personal or smack anyone over the head. It's just the kind of thinking I see in those who are abused, excusing away the behaviour of the abuser. That is why I said it isn't healthy to trivialize and handwave away horrible behaviour.

You make it seem as if Sherlock´s horrible behaviour somehow exuses Mary´s horrible behaviour.

Honestly, if Sherlock didn´t existed in the show at all and Mary had shot another friend who offered her help, for example Lestrade, would you see her behaviour as exusable, then?

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 10:25 am

Scmiezi - I was just explaining why I made my statement. I've seen other people creating threads where they have had issues with some of the scenes in Sherlock because of their real life experiences, I don't think that can be completely avoided.

nakahara - Not at all. I just don't want to demonize one while excusing the other. If snark is to be criticised, then Sherlock should be criticised for the same. Same rules for both Sherlock and Mary, that is what I would like.

SusiGo · January 5, 2015 10:34 am

May I quote myself as I started this thread?

"After watching HLV where Mary seems to change quite abruptly I had a closer look again at episodes 1 and 2. How is she presented there? She seems clever, sassy, funny and offers to reconcile John and Sherlock. But I think we get some hints that she may be not such a nice and loving person. I tried to examine her character from the very beginning based solely on what we see her do and hear her say."

That was my original idea - to find hints that she never was as nice and uncomplicated as she seemed to be in TEH and TSOT. The thread exploded but this is where it started. Just looking at facts. No hate, nothing disturbing, just my observations.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 5, 2015 10:35 am)

besleybean · January 5, 2015 10:41 am

I also think it's ok to have our favorite character or be particularly interested in one character for whatever reason...
But I think we do not only have to be fair to them, but also the actor playing them and to the writer of that role.
I too think it's fine to have personal wishes for characters...as long as we don't confuse that with the writer's own presentation of the character.
As for Mary, I would honestly prefer her not to be around...but I could live with it if she was kept in the series.
If she went, John may return to Baker Street and things would be just as they were before,.
I do wonder if there will be some storyline to get rid of the Watson house..an arson or bomb attack etc..
Possibly Mary would lose baby, but she and John would move into Baker St.
Or will the team want to maintain 221B as Sherlock's lair?
I don't know.
I would hate for Mary to go because John had to shoot her to stop her shooting Sherlock, or vice versa,,,something like that.
I don't see it either.
I think she will either be an accidental victim or a martyr...

Last edited by besleybean (January 5, 2015 10:44 am)

Liberty · January 5, 2015 10:59 am

Vhanja wrote:
Scmiezi - I was just explaining why I made my statement. I've seen other people creating threads where they have had issues with some of the scenes in Sherlock because of their real life experiences, I don't think that can be completely avoided.

That might have been my thread, but I'd like to say that I did reiterate that my past influenced my experience of watching the scenes, not my views on the writers' intentions. (If that makes sense!).

I suppose it's actually quite a good example of being able to see something clearly that was never supposed to be there (i.e. whether you believe the writers or what you see on screen). I saw something there, very clearly and graphically, that was never intended.

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 11:06 am

That makes perfect sense, Liberty. And it enhances my opinion that a piece of art is always open to interpretation by its viewers and there is much more to it than what artists intended.