BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 6:29 am

nakahara wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
I think he needed a cold shoulder from John for a while to see how much was at stake and that his behaviour truly had consequences. Saying "ta-da!" and sorry will not do, and he needed to truly feel that to learn it.

Still, him saying "sorry" had an impact on us, an audience - it made our connection to Sherlock easier and (at least for me it was like that) made us see his intent on reconciliation with John as serious and sincere. With Mary we have nothing on which we can build such emotional connection - we are flatly told, that we are suddenly supposed to believe that she is contrite. Well, it doesn´t work that way with me - some visual clues on-screen would help.

I feel the same. And I believe that it would have needed very little screen time to convince more people of Mary's regret, plainly spoken of Mary's good character.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 5, 2015 6:31 am)

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 6:34 am

Swanpride wrote:
Yeah...I agree...and I admit, I think it is kind of disturbing how some people psychoanalyse Mary in some sort of psychopath by picking out snippets of the series and interpreting them in the worst way possible.

Why is that disturbing? Are you afraid people start going "Wääähhh" again?

No, honestly, I find the love Mary receives strange, but not "disturbing". Magnussen's behaviour is disturbing. A different interpretation of a fictional character is hardly "disturbing" to me. Maybe you have chosen a word that's a tad too strong here.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 5, 2015 8:37 am)

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 7:49 am

Swanpride wrote:
Yeah...I agree...and I admit, I think it is kind of disturbing how some people psychoanalyse Mary in some sort of psychopath by picking out snippets of the series and interpreting them in the worst way possible. There is much about Mary to love - above all that she understands the strange relationship John and Sherlock have and accepts it.
In the end, I forgave Sherlock because he finally pulled his head out of his ass and put John first. Not in TEH (which is my least favourite episode of the whole series for multiple reasons), but in the two episodes after. What he and Mary have in common is that they want protect John. Mary wants to protect John so badly that she doesn't even care when she slips out of her role in front of Sherlock, as long as he is safe. I think the scene when Sherlock talks Sholto out of suicite is very telling. They both know that the best way to keep him from doing the deed is reminding him that he would hurt John. John doesn't even get it how important he is for him (even though he came to his wedding), but Mary understands. Because she would do the same. You just have to convince her that whatever she has to do is the best for John and she will do it. Even Magnussen understands that and tries to use John as argument to keep her from shooting him.

Well put, Swanpride.

I saw the entire series (several times) before ever reading up on it online and joining the fandom, so all my opinions on the characters and on the show are free from any fandom influence. So I was quite shocked to see the negativity towards Mary, and how the smallest of things she said or did would be picked apart (while at the same time Sherlock was excused for the most horrible behaviour again and again).

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 8:17 am

I'm truly fed up to read over and over again that fans who don't like Mary are either full of hate or disturbing. There have been long and profound posts why they do so. I would never ever go as far to say somebody here is hateful towards Sherlock for example, because it's also his deeds that are analyzed in the most negative light possible for " balance" reasons. Neither would I say it's disturbing, it's an opinion.

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 8:36 am

mrshouse wrote:
I'm truly fed up to read over and over again that fans who don't like Mary are either full of hate or disturbing. There have been long and profound posts why they do so. I would never ever go as far to say somebody here is hateful towards Sherlock for example, because it's also his deeds that are analyzed in the most negative light possible for " balance" reasons. Neither would I say it's disturbing, it's an opinion.

All this. Plus, I would never say it's disturbing that someone likes Mary or call it hateful when someone doesn't see Johnlock in the show.

I really don't understand why people seem to take it so personal.

besleybean · January 5, 2015 8:54 am

I don't know what you mean by take it personaL
Is anybody crying into their soup here?
For me, I don't care what anybody thinks personally about any of the characters...because this isn't going to affect either the character or the plot.
I do care that people are not accepting what the team have clearly stated about their show and that they are seeing something that isn't there....and if I'm being brutally honest, I can't pretend this doesn't influence my views on their other opinions.
I mean if somebody can be wrong about one thing...
Having said all of that, I will stick my neck out categorically and say this:
I do not KNOW about Mary or Moriarty.
But there is no Johnlock in the show and there never will be...that is the difference for me,as an individual.
Similarly I was WRONG about what Sherlock was capable of and I have to bow to Steven's knowledge of Canon, to both Steven and Benedict's knowledege of being a man, in terms of Irene...but I do give more weight to Lara's assessment from Irene's point of view as a woman.
So there you go, I have absolutely nothing to hide. What's with all the 'personal' stuff?

Last edited by besleybean (January 5, 2015 8:57 am)

Liberty · January 5, 2015 8:59 am

Maybe it's because she is so ambiguous, but it's virtually impossible (I think) to be able to see a character that way and feel involved in the story.   You find yourself being drawn to one "side" or the other.    I feel that, anyway. I really want to know who she is, and we're not told. There's something incredibly unsatisfactory in seeing her as good/bad Mary, who may or may not have intended to kill Sherlock, who may have been an evil killer or may have been trying to save the world, who may be involved or even orchestrating some evil plan - or some good plan! - who is presented as madonna and femme fatale, etc.

I find I have to watch it with either good Mary or bad Mary in my head.   I can't be neutral! And we're just not given the informatoin to know - I do think that's being deliberately saved for either the special or S4.

So all we have to go on, instead, is Sherlock's interpretation.   And there's one of two (or possibly three) things going on here:

1. Sherlock has now sussed Mary out and what he says is true - we could do with more detail, but the gist of it is there. He trusts Mary. He's happy to leave Mary alone with John, knowing she'll protect him.

2. Sherlock has sussed Mary out and what he says is another facade. He wants Mary to think he trusts her, and that John forgives her. He's happy to leave Mary with John, because it's part of a plan.

3. Sherlock hasn't sussed Mary out. He has "deduced" a story which may be partially right, and Mary has let him tell it and believe it.

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 8:59 am

You do not find other opinions "disturbing", bb. I think that is why I disagree with you, but never feel offended when you post something.

besleybean · January 5, 2015 9:02 am

'disturbing', well in that instance it may mean if you mean personally, but also what you mean by disturbing...could you be more specific, or give me an example?

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 9:05 am

besleybean wrote:
'disturbing', well in that instance it may mean if you mean personally, but also what you mean by disturbing...could you be more specific, or give me an example?

I was refering to this post:

Swanpride wrote:
Yeah...I agree...and I admit, I think it is kind of disturbing how some people psychoanalyse Mary in some sort of psychopath by picking out snippets of the series and interpreting them in the worst way possible.

I already commented on it but still find the word "disturbing" too strong here. And I have to admit that I feel slightly offended by it.

nakahara · January 5, 2015 9:08 am

Swanpride wrote:
Yeah...I agree...and I admit, I think it is kind of disturbing how some people psychoanalyse Mary in some sort of psychopath by picking out snippets of the series and interpreting them in the worst way possible. There is much about Mary to love - above all that she understands the strange relationship John and Sherlock have and accepts it.
In the end, I forgave Sherlock because he finally pulled his head out of his ass and put John first. Not in TEH (which is my least favourite episode of the whole series for multiple reasons), but in the two episodes after. What he and Mary have in common is that they want protect John. Mary wants to protect John so badly that she doesn't even care when she slips out of her role in front of Sherlock, as long as he is safe. I think the scene when Sherlock talks Sholto out of suicite is very telling. They both know that the best way to keep him from doing the deed is reminding him that he would hurt John. John doesn't even get it how important he is for him (even though he came to his wedding), but Mary understands. Because she would do the same. You just have to convince her that whatever she has to do is the best for John and she will do it. Even Magnussen understands that and tries to use John as argument to keep her from shooting him.

I find it disturbing that people psychoanalise Sherlock as some form of a psychopath by picking out snippets of the series and interpreting them in the worst way possible, making him and arse or which is worse, randomly condemning both him and Mycroft as monsters.

There is much about Sherlock to love - above all that he understands the strange relationship John and Mary have and accepts it and that he sacrifices both his work and his life for them. So much so, that it actually looks like an abusive one-term relationship, where people abuse Sherlock´s love, take this sacrifice for granted and coldly discard him afterward, "putting him" on a bus, without even saying thank you.

SusiGo · January 5, 2015 9:09 am

I hope you are all aware that we are still talking about a TV show here. Sometimes I am really baffled by what has come out of the writers's choice to make Mary a killer and pregnant.

As for "disturbing" - the word was used by Swanpride so please ask her what she means by it.

mrshouse · January 5, 2015 9:11 am

Besley, this is in my opinion not about the writers or their comments. This is about discussing a fictional character, Mary. If this forum derails into nothing but stating what the writers said we might as well close this place down!

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 9:15 am

SusiGo wrote:
As for "disturbing" - the word was used by Swanpride so please ask her what she means by it.

You are right, of course. I have already written her a pm.

besleybean · January 5, 2015 9:18 am

@Schmiezi Well obviously that instance has nothing to do with me, so I couldn't personally comment...it's up to individuals how they feel about things...if it's a problem as in breaking rules, that's a different matter...
But on the topic raised in that quote.
I find all analysis of a character valid.
But I think we have to be prepared to do a bit of leg work, not just in hauling up psychological texts(which the team may or may not have read), but actutally reading about and listening to what the team have said about a character because obviously they know best.
Seeing as I appear to have taken some form of truth drug with my breakfast this morning, I shall also add: I cannot help that at the back of my mind is the concern that some people, may just want to think badly of Mary because they simply do not want her around.
Again I have always been clear with my view on this: I never wanted Mary in the show, I knew she would be, I like how the team have written her...I do not KNOW her long term future, but I doubt she would be around forever...
The baby has thrown a bit of a spanner...
Continuing my morning confessional, I should perhaps be clean on this too: Mary has never been as much as a problem for me as Irene...I always accepted John was a lady's man, but I never want any female near Sherlock!

Last edited by besleybean (January 5, 2015 10:25 am)

SusiGo · January 5, 2015 9:32 am

Just one remark -sorry, but in literary (or film or other) studies the author is not the first authority to consult when analysing a work. Take Shakespeare for example - we have no comment on his works from his own mouth therefore we look at what is in the text. And this also applies to authors who have commented on their own works although people usually do not hand over the analysis but let the audience come to their own conclusions. Therefore I think that what Moftiss are saying is not meant as a definite interpretation of their work but as additional information or, sometimes, even misinformation. And the moment a work of art gets published in any way it belongs to the public and may be interpreted.
ACD was quite aware of this when saying people could kill or marry Sherlock Holmes or do whatever they liked to him.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 5, 2015 9:32 am)

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 9:36 am

This isn't personal for me either. I can't see how it would be, seeing as what other people think about fictional characters won't affect my life in any way.

Even though I disagree with the opinion that Mary is "evil", I don't mind if people interpret it that way. We all have our own opinions. I got more of a pet peeve with how that analysis is made, when small details are brought forward as signs of her evilness, whereas Sherlock is excused for just about everything. It's not something I've seen other places on this forum, only in this thread. That was a double standard I hadn't expected, and which surprised me quite a bit, I have to admit.

Vhanja · January 5, 2015 9:39 am

SusiGo wrote:
Just one remark -sorry, but in literary (or film or other) studies the author is not the first authority to consult when analysing a work. Take Shakespeare for example - we have no comment on his works from his own mouth therefore we look at what is in the text. And this also applies to authors who have commented on their own works although people usually do not hand over the analysis but let the audience come to their own conclusions. Therefore I think that what Moftiss are saying is not meant as a definite interpretation of their work but as additional information or, sometimes, even misinformation. And the moment a work of art gets published in any way it belongs to the public and may be interpreted.
ACD was quite aware of this when saying people could kill or marry Sherlock Holmes or do whatever they liked to him.

That will depend on what type of analysis you are doing, I will imagine. If you analyse one work compared to another work, or what a work says about the time and culture it was written it, for instance, you won't go to the author. And what you say with Shakespeare - exactly, we don't have any comments from his own mouth, therefore we go to other sources.

But if we want to know if the work was meant to be A or B, there will be no better source than the author. How can there be?

Harriet · January 5, 2015 9:40 am

Did you do literature studies, Vhanja?

(Sorry, just got curious.)

Last edited by Harriet (January 5, 2015 9:45 am)

Schmiezi · January 5, 2015 9:44 am

@Vhanja: I can only speak for myself, of course. I think Mary is evil because she shot Sherlock when he offerted to help her. This is no small detail to me. All the rest, like her lack of obvious regret and her snarky way of receiving John's forgiveness, only underlines that evilness IMO.

Again, this is what I am teaching at school: Look at the text, any text, and look for subtle clues on how a person or a place or the use of a trope can be analysed. Most subtle hints are there on purpose. Or their lack is on purpose. And if you find enough clues to support ypur point of view, feel free to voice it, even if "authorities" disagree with you.
This is what I expect my pupils to do, and that is also what I do.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 5, 2015 9:44 am)