BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Schmiezi · January 4, 2015 5:32 pm

Only that Mary kind of made herself, by creating a fake identity...

besleybean · January 4, 2015 5:58 pm

Yes, she kind of had to.

Schmiezi · January 4, 2015 6:39 pm

besleybean wrote:
Yes, she kind of had to.

Kind of.

nakahara · January 4, 2015 6:45 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Just for the record, I don't like the way Sherlock says "sorry" either. It doesn't sound sincer to me, especially since Sherlock doesn't even realize that there might be something he should be sorry for before he actually encounters John's grief. Now, I am not too angry with Sherlock about it, because, like Mary points out, he really doesn't get it, he doesn't deliberatly try to hurt John (doesn't change the fact that he did, though). But that doesn't change the fact that he uses "sorry" not out of a position of true regret, but because he wants John back in his life. The moment Sherlock really shows that he is worth of John's forgiveness is during the wedding, when he does everything in his power to ensure that John will get the perfect wedding, because this is the first time in the whole series Sherlock does something without any ulterior motives, and he does it even though he would certainly prefer it if John were back in Baker Street.

Oh, so Sherlock only pulled John out of the fire because of some ulterior motive of his? He wanted to use him for something, otherwise he would let him burn to a crisp?

I believe that Sherlock can feel both sorry and want John back in his life at the same time. I don´t see why those things should be mutually exclusive.

Swanpride wrote:
I also don't think that the month seperation was really John's fault. I mean, the moment the door bell goes in the morning he goes to the door like an excited puppy, being all disappointed when the visit isn't about Sherlock after all. I think Sherlock deliberatly avoided him, so that John could realize that the normal life is not for him, plus, he was focussed on Janine and he knew that John wouldn't appreciate what he did to her. Plus, while John didn't see Sherlock for a month, there had to be some sort of contact, otherwise Sherlock and Mary wouldn't be able to discuss his weight gain.

Nobody was trying to ascribe John some "fault" here. But I din´t like how Mary - who as you just wisely pointed out, probably had some contact with Sherlock herself - tried to wave him off as unimportant when John obviously missed him. It make her look callous. Also - what contact could Sherlock have with Mary behind John´s back? Wasn´t he actually checking if John is available and Mary had said that no, he isn´t? Not making her any more sympathic, this act, if it really was like that...

besleybean · January 4, 2015 6:46 pm

She possibly realises now, it may have been better to be open from the start... a bit like Sherlock after Reichenbach.

Schmiezi · January 4, 2015 6:50 pm

besleybean wrote:
She possibly realises now, it may have been better to be open from the start... a bit like Sherlock after Reichenbach.

I wish we would see her apologizing for it as often as we see Sherlock apologizing for Reichenbach.

besleybean · January 4, 2015 6:57 pm

I am sorry, I just do not get why people are so concerned about all of this.
For me, Sherlock, John and Mary are all happy and I'm happy with that, too.
Unless of course I have conclusive proof of anything different.

Schmiezi · January 4, 2015 7:00 pm

For me, Sherlock wants to keep John save from his "I would do anything to keep him by my side"-kind of wife and is far from happy. He doesn't look happy to me when leaving the wedding early. He doesn't look happy to me in a single scene after being shot. Neither does John.

I really fail to see in which scenes people see happiness.

Liberty · January 4, 2015 7:01 pm

Mary's seen Sherlock apologising for Reichenbach and that it didn't really "work".

I think Mary's often undreadable expression after she's caught out, and her silence, fit with both negative and positive interpretations of her motives. Negative, obviously, but even positive/neutral - I think that defensive sort of look actually seems quite natural for the situation. Her life is on the line (literally and metaphorically). I'm not sure what she could say or do that wouldn't just make John angry. Her silence and almost blankness seems to help to calm him down - and Sherlock helps to deflect John's anger onto himself. (Maybe the TEH reunion would have worked better if somebody had done the talking for Sherlock instead of letting him cock it up!).

Schmiezi · January 4, 2015 7:27 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think Mary's often undreadable expression after she's caught out, and her silence, fit with both negative and positive interpretations of her motives.

Right. Ambiguity on purpose. So should we wonder why the producers made her look that way?

silverblaze · January 4, 2015 7:53 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I think Mary's often undreadable expression after she's caught out, and her silence, fit with both negative and positive interpretations of her motives.
Right. Ambiguity on purpose. So should we wonder why the producers made her look that way?

To make her more scary. And scared.

tykobrian · January 4, 2015 8:02 pm

Hey, it's been so long since I've browsed this thread. I have one hell of a catching up to do! Meanwhile I'd like to share with you these (x x x) three writings analyzing Mary's psyche and thought process based on the limited time we see her so far. I have to admit I didn't appreciate how much Moffitson made the most out of the limited time to flesh out Mary's character. It makes me sad when people take things personally when discussing Mary and bring the discussion completely away from her. I find her fascinating and love to read thoughtful and insightful posts like I've mentioned here.

Vhanja · January 4, 2015 8:15 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Just for the record, I don't like the way Sherlock says "sorry" either. It doesn't sound sincer to me, especially since Sherlock doesn't even realize that there might be something he should be sorry for before he actually encounters John's grief. Now, I am not too angry with Sherlock about it, because, like Mary points out, he really doesn't get it, he doesn't deliberatly try to hurt John (doesn't change the fact that he did, though). But that doesn't change the fact that he uses "sorry" not out of a position of true regret, but because he wants John back in his life. The moment Sherlock really shows that he is worth of John's forgiveness is during the wedding, when he does everything in his power to ensure that John will get the perfect wedding, because this is the first time in the whole series Sherlock does something without any ulterior motives, and he does it even though he would certainly prefer it if John were back in Baker Street.

I also don't think that the month seperation was really John's fault. I mean, the moment the door bell goes in the morning he goes to the door like an excited puppy, being all disappointed when the visit isn't about Sherlock after all. I think Sherlock deliberatly avoided him, so that John could realize that the normal life is not for him, plus, he was focussed on Janine and he knew that John wouldn't appreciate what he did to her. Plus, while John didn't see Sherlock for a month, there had to be some sort of contact, otherwise Sherlock and Mary wouldn't be able to discuss his weight gain.

I agree with this. It's clear that he doesn't understand what the problem is when he at the ends of the reunion says "I did say sorry, isn't that what you're supposed to do?" He thinks that just saying sorry will work like a magic word and all will be forgotten. When John visits him later, his "Sorry, again, sorry" sounds half as he means it and half as an exasperated "Darn, he's upset again - better say sorry!"

Maybe the bonfire scene is what it takes for him to understand what it means to think you're losing someone you love.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 4, 2015 8:17 pm)

Liberty · January 4, 2015 8:28 pm

I think about half of the month separation was because of the honeymoon (I got the idea that HLV follows straight after TSOT - tell me if I'm wrong!), By the time John and Mary are back, Sherlock is already on the case Magnussen case and dating Janine. But I get the impression that Sherlock intended John to get involved with the case (he'd have known John would be in touch when he saw the drug story), and that even if he hadn't, John would have been round looking to get involved at some point.

nakahara · January 4, 2015 8:32 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I agree with this. It's clear that he doesn't understand what the problem is when he at the ends of the reunion says "I did say sorry, isn't that what you're supposed to do?" He thinks that just saying sorry will work like a magic word and all will be forgotten. When John visits him later, his "Sorry, again, sorry" sounds half as he means it and half as an exasperated "Darn, he's upset again - better say sorry!"

Maybe the bonfire scene is what it takes for him to understand what it means to think you're losing someone you love.

Sherlock already lost John twice. The first time in TRF when he was forced to give up his old life (including John) for two long years. The second time after he was rejected in the restaurant and after John smashed his head into his face (note that Sherlock din´t try to contact John after that, belivieving that it´s forever, but that he missed him so much he heard John´s voice in "Jack The Ripper" scene.

Those times don´t count to you because....?

Also, the bonfire scene took place before Sherlock´s "Sorry, sorry again". So if the bonfire scene is what it takes for him to understand what it means to think you're losing someone you love - why would he be exasperated a day LATER?

Liberty · January 4, 2015 8:40 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
Liberty wrote:
I think Mary's often undreadable expression after she's caught out, and her silence, fit with both negative and positive interpretations of her motives.
Right. Ambiguity on purpose. So should we wonder why the producers made her look that way?
To make her more scary. And scared.

Yes, and I think because her story isn't finished yet.

Vhanja · January 4, 2015 8:47 pm

nakahara wrote:
Sherlock already lost John twice. The first time in TRF when he was forced to give up his old life (including John) for two long years. The second time after he was rejected in the restaurant and after John smashed his head into his face (note that Sherlock din´t try to contact John after that, belivieving that it´s forever, but that he missed him so much he heard John´s voice in "Jack The Ripper" scene.

Those times don´t count to you because....?

Also, the bonfire scene took place before Sherlock´s "Sorry, sorry again". So if the bonfire scene is what it takes for him to understand what it means to think you're losing someone you love - why would he be exasperated a day LATER?

He lost his closeness and friendship, but he didn't lose as him think he was dead or going to die. And the first one was something he went into with open eyes and knew the consequences (not seeing John for two years). If those two incidents had given him an understanding of true loss, then he wouldn't act like he did during the reunion.

Ah, of course, the "sorry"-remark was after the bonfire scene, true. Forgot about that.

I think he needed a cold shoulder from John for a while to see how much was at stake and that his behaviour truly had consequences. Saying "ta-da!" and sorry will not do, and he needed to truly feel that to learn it.

nakahara · January 4, 2015 9:11 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I think he needed a cold shoulder from John for a while to see how much was at stake and that his behaviour truly had consequences. Saying "ta-da!" and sorry will not do, and he needed to truly feel that to learn it.

Still, him saying "sorry" had an impact on us, an audience - it made our connection to Sherlock easier and (at least for me it was like that) made us see his intent on reconciliation with John as serious and sincere. With Mary we have nothing on which we can build such emotional connection - we are flatly told, that we are suddenly supposed to believe that she is contrite. Well, it doesn´t work that way with me - some visual clues on-screen would help.

Ah-chie · January 4, 2015 11:50 pm

I got all the obvious and obscure contextual clues I needed to see that Mary was genuinely sorry (as was Sherlock) for hurting John. If you (and some others) don't see it, then that's your perspective, and while I respect that, it isn't mine.

Both Sherlock and Mary's contrite behaviour made an impact on me.

-Val

Last edited by Ah-chie (January 4, 2015 11:53 pm)

Ah-chie · January 5, 2015 2:56 am

Thank you Swanpride for putting my feelings into words in such an eloquent manner.

Nothing I can add except to say ditto!

-Val