BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

mrshouse · December 29, 2014 4:07 pm

Spitting a bit of fire, are we, dear?
But I agree with the points you make.

nakahara · December 30, 2014 10:19 pm

OK, we don´t know if Mary was invited, persuaded to come or how she got into the house of Sherlock´s parents but we at least saw her fakely sweet interactions with Mr. and Mrs. Holmes that followed and they were gall inducing. Letting herself be served by the elder mother of the man she murdered, chatting like an innocent little schoolgirl... all artificial like a saccharine.

And as we saw from her interactions even during that scene, Mary is a strong woman who would not be forced into anything if she didn´t want to. She is not a frail flower. If she wanted to negotiate with Sherlock in another place, she would have said so.

Liberty · December 30, 2014 10:44 pm

I've been thinking about Mary going freelance. I thought that implied that she might be "evil" - she'd left working for the government (so maybe not so terribly different, morally, from a soldier, a spy or James Bond) to be a mercenary assassin - in it for the money rather than serving her country (whatever her country is - I'm just assuming US because of the CIA). But I wonder if they might go another way with it - it could be that she decided to follow her moral principles and only kill people who she, personally, felt deserved to be killed.    She kind of hints at that when she mentions Magnussen - "People like Magnussen SHOULD be killed. That's why there are people like me".

As it turns out, she's right that Magnussen should be killed (in the Sherlock universe - I wouldn't agree with it in real life!). And Sherlock ends up doing exactly what she planned to do (except she'd have been more efficient). What if all her freelance targets had been people like Magnussen. People who, even Sherlock would agree, deserve to be killed?   (And again, I want to reiterate that I'm all for the justice system in real life but in the Sherlock TV universe ..) we've already been set up to believe that there are certain people who are dangerously evil and also beyond the law - Magnussen and Moriarty. Presumably there are more out there, maybe in other countries. (I'm sure we can think of possible examples even in real life - powerful but villainous people whose death might be thought a blessing). Is it possible that Mary was out "saving the world"?

The thing that would make me think not is that she doesn't say this in her defence, to win John round.   But then ... she kind of does.   Just not in detail. "People like Magnussen deserve to be killed. That's why there are people like me" implies that that's her purpose - to kill the people who deserve to be killed. And she gives him the memory stick ... now, the memory stick confuses me a bit, because if this sort of information really was on it, then it would probably be dangerous information for John to have. It's dangerous enough that he knows Mary's undercover. And Mary doesn't seem to think it's redeeming information - "you won't love me", so I don't think it's anything that exonorates her.   But at this point, we and John don't know that Sherlock is going to kill Magnussen (and Mary might not know that John killed the cabbie) - maybe Mary thinks that just the details of assassinations (especially if she chose to do them) will be enough to put John off her.   Or maybe there's something else.

Anyway, I'm just playing with this idea, wondering how they could make Mary "good", if they wanted to. Either way, I don't think they can just gloss over her motivations and throw her past in the fire of forgetfulness along with the memory stick! I think we need to know more.

nakahara · December 30, 2014 10:50 pm

But that still does not explain why she shot Sherlock (as I explained yesterday, she had no reason for such act + it made her situation much worse than before).

Also, she really could look just a bit guilty in Sherlock´s parent house when they weren´t looking. Not just read book coldly like "Oh, whatever!"

nakahara · December 30, 2014 10:53 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I don't think that we'll ever know more. The whole point of the scene with the memory stick is that her past doesn't matter. She is Mary Watson.

There were theories that in her character they adapted character of a detective from "Valley of Fear". In that case we would not only know her past, but it´s possible it would redeem her.

But I don´t know if such theories hold truth. Too much contradictions from the authors lately.

Liberty · December 30, 2014 10:55 pm

Yes, you may be right, Swanpride. But it's frustrating. If she only killed the people who really "deserved to be killed" then she's not that different from John and Sherlock, who have done the same thing. She can still be on the side of the angels. If she was killing people for money with no regard to whom, then she's more similar to Moriarty, and on the side of the devil (although she may have reformed, I suppose). It's such a huge difference that it's hard to believe that we don't need to know. Unless it's going to be revealed late - after her death, for instance.

Last edited by Liberty (December 30, 2014 11:02 pm)

Harriet · December 30, 2014 11:01 pm

Like someone innocent who offers help?

Liberty · December 30, 2014 11:02 pm

Nakahara, the commentary suggests (but does not confirm for definite) that Sherlock's explanation is to be taken at face value. Personally, I think it's fanciful, but it's not the only thing in the series that is a bit fanciful, so I suppose I can learn to accept it if that's the intention. (And putting it in the context of what we see in the series, it does look as if, if she'd really wanted him to die, she'd have shot him in the head - we see a headshot in Sherlock's imagination and later when Sherlock shoots to kill Magnussen).

nakahara · December 30, 2014 11:06 pm

Liberty wrote:
Nakahara, the commentary suggests (but does not confirm for definite) that Sherlock's explanation is to be taken at face value. Personally, I think it's fanciful, but it's not the only thing in the series that is a bit fanciful, so I suppose I can learn to accept it if that's the intention. (And putting it in the context of what we see in the series, it does look as if, if she'd really wanted him to die, she'd have shot him in the head - we see a headshot in Sherlock's imagination and later when Sherlock shoots to kill Magnussen).

Uhm, so in Sherlockverse no one dies from the wound from a shotgun, if not shot straightly into the head?

Crazy.

I wonder why the American who attacked Irene Adler in SiB died then. Was shot to the chest, if I remember correctly.

Last edited by nakahara (December 30, 2014 11:08 pm)

Liberty · December 30, 2014 11:26 pm

Oh, not that nobody can be killed any other way (clearly Sherlock could have been killed by Mary's shot - the commentary suggests that her aim was a little off and that's why he came so close to it) but in that episode we're shown headshots when people want to kill. Although he doesn't say it, we can see, when Sherlock gives the alternative scenario of Mary shooting him and Magnussen that instead of shooting him in the chest, she shoots him in the head - and Magnussen too. And then later, Sherlock deliberately shoots Magnussen in the head, not the chest. That does allow some room for Mary to have gone for the chest rather than the head to incapacitate rather than kill.

Here's the rather ambiguous bit from the commentary (from Arianne de Vere)

Steven: “I cut a couple of lines there [which] I wish I’d kept in, where he says, ‘You saved my life,’ [and she says,] ‘I nearly killed you,’ and he says, ‘And you didn’t hit the middle of the coin. Nobody’s perfect.’

It could be taken either way, but I was pretty certain that Sherlock's story was going to be exposed as false in S4, and I'm not so sure now (and I think the lack of headshot is the biggest evidence in favour of it).

There's another bit in the commentary when Sherlock is shot where Steven says he did his research but mostly got it wrong - we never find out what he got wrong! So I don't know if it was to do with the shooting or the mind palace stuff.

Last edited by Liberty (December 30, 2014 11:27 pm)

besleybean · December 30, 2014 11:28 pm

Oh I took it to mean the Mind Palace stuff.

Liberty · December 30, 2014 11:30 pm

Yes, I think so, but I'm not sure if it meant the more medical stuff to do with the shooting, or something else).

nakahara · December 30, 2014 11:33 pm

Uh, I thought this show is at least a tiiiny bit realistic. And has psychological motivations that can be accepted even if mildly dramatised for the screen.

But this is incredible. As is the logic of the authors:

Lying about the fake relationship = cruel, unforgivable crime.
Making someone go through clinical death and painful physical recovery (+ it could´ve ended with brain damage too, from excessive blood loss) = little amiable incident.

And people wonder why I think Moftiss lie. Constantly.

Liberty · December 31, 2014 12:59 am

Oh, I don't think it's AT ALL presented as a little amiable incident.

If you're saying that there's no way they're going to redeem her in S4 (or the special), that's fine - I would agree that there is more evidence for her being a villain than not, and I'd kind of like to see her as an arch-villain in the next series.   But I DO think there's a chance that they will redeem her, and I'm thinking about how they can do it - how it would make sense.

There's Mary suggesting that she only assassinates people who deserve to die, and the fact that she went "freelance" (possibly so that she could choose her targets, rather than kill on order).

There's another idea I've been playing with - I've liked the idea of Mary being a "plant" who falls in love with the person she's sent to watch. Like the assassins, she'd be watching John for signs of Sherlock being alive.   But what if that's not it?   What if Moriarty is her target (I HOPE he's not alive, but I'm going with the possibility that he is - or that she thinks he is). One way to watch for Moriarty is to watch Sherlock (because Moriarty is obsessed with Sherlock, and Sherlock is one of the people most likely to know/guess if he's alive). And the way to watch Sherlock (if she suspects he's alive) is to watch John.

It doesn't quite fit with Mary's words at the airport (confirming that Moriarty is dead - oh, there's another headshot mentioned), although it may be that Mary had eventually come to think that if Moriarty didn't appear shortly after Sherlock did, he really was dead, or maybe she's still keeping up the front of pretending she doesn't know. (It would also help to explain why Mary thought John wouldn't love her after looking at the memory stick - he'd find the information that she was "working" when she started the relationship with him). Anyway, now heavily pregnant, Mary is going to have to face what she set out to do - kill Moriarty, somebody who "deserves to die".

It's a bit too much of a conspiracy for me, but I kind of like the idea!   I don't want Moriarty to be alive, though (too many fake deaths, and Sherlock failing in TRF), and my guess/hope is that he isn't alive.

There's also the "guardian" thing (although I still think that might just be the paper), and the fact that Sherlock feels John is safe with Mary.

Last edited by Liberty (December 31, 2014 1:02 am)

Vhanja · December 31, 2014 11:36 am

Swanpride wrote:
It's not like Sherlock and Mary stood before a judge - or were even judged by the same people. That Janine would be a different perspective on getting her heart broken than Sherlock would have on what he perceives a logical step is no really surprising. One shouldn't confuse that with an ultimate truth what is worse.

And Mary doesn't exactly get off scott free. She gets the silent treatment for months, time during which she has to expect that suddenly the secret service turns up at her doorstep in order to take her in. That's not exactly a comfortable position to be. I would rather take a moment of pain than that.

Good points. But I guess Sherlock faking a relationship with Janine is another one of these things that are handwaved away because "it's just who Sherlock is", while as Mary gets flack for reading a book at the Holmes parents.

Even though I like Mary, I don't think all her assasin work was nice. If she was some undercover heroine, I think she would have tried to explain that to John, even want to be there with him when he looked through that memory stick. Her words clearly states that she has done things so horrible she is sure she will lose John if he knows about it.

The classical redemption is to die to for someone. If she died for Sherlock, the man she almost killed, I think that would redeem her completely in the eyes of John (probably more so than if she died to protect him).

besleybean · December 31, 2014 11:43 am

I don't think John still needs Mary redeemed to him, I think he's there already...

mrshouse · December 31, 2014 11:49 am

Erm, sorry, but I have to disagree here. Again, Sherlock's deeds are not handwaved away, we have a whole thread discussing " poor Janine?" and the way Sherlock treated her, we discussed in extenso if there could have been different ways to solve the CAM trouble but to just shoot him and no one here said that he was just asking for it. And to be honest, we know that Sherlock spend months in hospital under morphine for analgesia, calling this " a moment of pain" is IMHO hand waving away at its best.
And furthermore, nobody has trouble with Mary reading a book, but how she meets with the parents and how the talking style around her forgiveness is.

Liberty · December 31, 2014 12:05 pm

But if Mary is still on a case? (No wonder she looked shocked when she found she was pregnant!). It's all such a mystery that I think that's possible. At that point, the case could be Magnussen, but I don't think it has to be (she is keeping tabs on Magnussen, but doesn't target him until after the wedding). It does seem a coincidence that Mary happens to be working at John's practice, so I think it's possible that she originally cultivated a relationship with John for other purposes and that's what she thinks will stop him loving her when he finds it out.

Vhanja · December 31, 2014 12:05 pm

I know that what I wrote was a bit exaggerated, but that is actually how this thread feels like to me.

I am stil troubled myself with the shooting, and I've never really understood why she did. A shot in the leg, a whack over the head with the gun (I reckon a trained assassin could give a non-damaging whack just hard enough to put someone out of business for a while).

SusiGo · December 31, 2014 12:07 pm

Yes, she might be on a case of some sort. Or part of a plan. But who is behind it? She herself? Moriarty? A government agency? We have no idea, do we? But it is fun to speculate.