BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo · December 30, 2014 5:22 pm

Oh. Shall we start the thread from the beginning?

Harriet · December 30, 2014 5:23 pm

You don't want to talk about it?

Vhanja · December 30, 2014 5:24 pm

Liberty wrote:
It's one of my favourite episodes, and I love Sherlock in it, but it still bothers me that he leaves John to worry so much. Especially at the end, when he seems to make it clear that he's grieving and devastated (asking for the phone), but later quite smugly (OK, it's not really smugly at all, but in the context of letting John infer grief, it kind of is) putting it in a drawer, knowing that Irene's alive and well. Of course he can't tell John (as usual!), but it makes me a little uncomfortable, after John's concern and devotion throughout the episode.

Yes, a thousand times yes to this! I love this episode, but this part has always bothered me. John is nothing but supportive and understanding, and Sherlock completely shuts him out. John tries to get through to him when they think she is dead, when she has returned, when he delivers the last message - and Sherlock continues to do nothing but shut him out.

It really doesn't sit well with me, how John is such a great and supportive friend and Sherlock does takes it for granted, really just as an annoyance, and never bothers to treat him like this kind of friend back.

besleybean · December 30, 2014 5:24 pm

Perfectly happy to talk aboiut it,except it would be OT.

Sorry@Vhanja: but I think this is just because Sherlock is not coping with his feelings about Irene and cannot open up about this..

Last edited by besleybean (December 30, 2014 5:27 pm)

SusiGo · December 30, 2014 5:28 pm

This is your opinion. There may be others.

Vhanja · December 30, 2014 5:28 pm

besleybean wrote:
Sorry@Vhajana: but I think this is just because Sherlock is not coping with his feelings about Irene and cannot open up about this..

I wouldn't expect him to sit down and open up his innermost feelings with tears and fluff. Just - talk to him. Respond, acknowledge that he is even there.

besleybean · December 30, 2014 5:30 pm

Sherlock seems to shut down and withdraw into himself at such moments.

nakahara · December 30, 2014 5:32 pm

Harriet wrote:
nakahara, I agree that being queer is still quite a big issue to many young queer people. For example they have an about three times higher suicide rate than straight teenagers.

And I think I can use my two hands to count all the openly queer characters I've seen on tv so far.

Precisely, from what I head about their experiences first-hand, their life certainly isn´t a bed or roses.

I watched some Japanese TV series, so I can recall more gays than that - but that´s just really because Japan is unique in that manner and people there are not parcularily bothered by the presence of gays in television. I always wonder why our "Western" society is still so "constipated" when I compare the two.

Liberty · December 30, 2014 5:32 pm

nakahara wrote:
Well, that blogger usually is sarcastic, but without any malicious intent, so I don´t see her as particulary rude - if you look past her sarcasm, she just wanted to point out that Benedict´s words are indeed quite contradictory. Not only he declares Sherlock asexual and non-asexual in one breath, but I´m still scratching my head over his puzzling declaration that Sherlock "can´t beat woman´s intuition". Huh?

It might be a reference to Irene in particular - she seems to work (very well) on intuition rather than deduction. (Although I bet Irene does a fair bit of straightforward deduction too).

I think the first "asexual" has the meaning of "not interested in sex/not wanting to be sexually active" (people do use the word this way sometimes, and I've heard it used a lot about Sherlock). The second use of "asexual" seems to mean "lacking all sexual desire" (the more common use). He explains the first as soon as he says it - he doesn't want it and it's purposeful. Yes, it would be bad writing if this was an essay, but I imagine when he's interviewed he's having to say things on the spot - I think he's very good at it, and people could just listen/read to get his meaning rather than criticising.

Sarcasm can be funny (and quite British, I suppose), but it's also kind of unpleasant, especially when directed at somebody like this. (I'd find it rude if somebody was talking like that about me!).

mrshouse · December 30, 2014 5:33 pm

Maybe, yes. He does the same with his feelings for John at the tarmac. But there is a process and emotional development all over. I think he slowly opens up. He's not the same person as in SIB.

Vhanja · December 30, 2014 5:34 pm

Even just a "I don't want to talk about it" would be fine. Just an acknowledgment at all.

besleybean · December 30, 2014 5:36 pm

That would be very human!

SusiGo · December 30, 2014 5:36 pm

But this is not like Sherlock. When does he ever talk about his feelings to anyone? Even in series 3 when he accepts having them? He never mentions Serbia, or that is hurts him to lose John (in which way ever), or that he was affected by the death of his childhood dog or by being shot? We - the viewers - can see it in his face but he does not talk about it. Yet.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 30, 2014 5:37 pm)

nakahara · December 30, 2014 5:37 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Liberty wrote:
It's one of my favourite episodes, and I love Sherlock in it, but it still bothers me that he leaves John to worry so much. Especially at the end, when he seems to make it clear that he's grieving and devastated (asking for the phone), but later quite smugly (OK, it's not really smugly at all, but in the context of letting John infer grief, it kind of is) putting it in a drawer, knowing that Irene's alive and well. Of course he can't tell John (as usual!), but it makes me a little uncomfortable, after John's concern and devotion throughout the episode.
Yes, a thousand times yes to this! I love this episode, but this part has always bothered me. John is nothing but supportive and understanding, and Sherlock completely shuts him out. John tries to get through to him when they think she is dead, when she has returned, when he delivers the last message - and Sherlock continues to do nothing but shut him out.

It really doesn't sit well with me, how John is such a great and supportive friend and Sherlock does takes it for granted, really just as an annoyance, and never bothers to treat him like this kind of friend back.

My theory on this: Sherlock knows that John is secretly seeing Mycroft behind his back (he can certainly deduce such simple thing, John is usually an open book to him). Now, if he let him know about Irene´s survival, Mycroft (who as we know is even better at decuction) would know about Irene in no time. And that would blow her cover and put her in danger anew, turning all Sherlock´s effort to save her to naught.

If he wants to keep her safe, he can´t tell John anything, no matter how much he loves him and relies on him.

besleybean · December 30, 2014 5:41 pm

Excellent.

Vhanja · December 30, 2014 5:42 pm

nakahara wrote:
My theory on this: Sherlock knows that John is secretly seeing Mycroft behind his back (he can certainly deduce such simple thing, John is usually an open book to him). Now, if he let him know about Irene´s survival, Mycroft (who as we know is even better at decuction) would know about Irene in no time. And that would blow her cover and put her in danger anew, turning all Sherlock´s effort to save her to naught.

If he wants to keep her safe, he can´t tell John anything, no matter how much he loves him and relies on him.

I'm not necessarily talking about telling him that Irene is alive towards the end. I'm talking more about Sherlock's own conflicting feelings towards Irene in general. He was clearly in pain when she was supposedly dead, which must have opened a flurry of emotions when she returned and was alive after all. John cancels his Christmas plans with Harry, breaks up with his girlfriend (or: she breaks up with him), tries several times to ask Sherlock how he is doing - and he gets nothing in return but pouty snarks and total silence.

Last edited by Vhanja (December 30, 2014 5:44 pm)

besleybean · December 30, 2014 5:45 pm

Unfortunately at this time, Sherlock is capable of no more...
As others have pointed out, look how he's progressed by the time we get to the best man's speech.

Last edited by besleybean (December 30, 2014 5:46 pm)

Liberty · December 30, 2014 5:48 pm

nakahara wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
Liberty wrote:
It's one of my favourite episodes, and I love Sherlock in it, but it still bothers me that he leaves John to worry so much. Especially at the end, when he seems to make it clear that he's grieving and devastated (asking for the phone), but later quite smugly (OK, it's not really smugly at all, but in the context of letting John infer grief, it kind of is) putting it in a drawer, knowing that Irene's alive and well. Of course he can't tell John (as usual!), but it makes me a little uncomfortable, after John's concern and devotion throughout the episode.
Yes, a thousand times yes to this! I love this episode, but this part has always bothered me. John is nothing but supportive and understanding, and Sherlock completely shuts him out. John tries to get through to him when they think she is dead, when she has returned, when he delivers the last message - and Sherlock continues to do nothing but shut him out.

It really doesn't sit well with me, how John is such a great and supportive friend and Sherlock does takes it for granted, really just as an annoyance, and never bothers to treat him like this kind of friend back.
My theory on this: Sherlock knows that John is secretly seeing Mycroft behind his back (he can certainly deduce such simple thing, John is usually an open book to him). Now, if he let him know about Irene´s survival, Mycroft (who as we know is even better at decuction) would know about Irene in no time. And that would blow her cover and put her in danger anew, turning all Sherlock´s effort to save her to naught.

If he wants to keep her safe, he can´t tell John anything, no matter how much he loves him and relies on him.

Yes, exactly - that's what I meant by " he can't tell John". He's still protecting Irene .... and we get a similar situation later, in TRF, when he can't tell John very important things. But he doesn't need to tell John that Irene's alive - he just needs to give John the message that he's OK. The way he acts in that final scene with John gives the impression that he's devastated by the death. I suppose something similar goes on the first time Irene "dies" too. He's so impenetrable and inscrutable that it wouldn't take much for him to tip the scales from *I'm not OK" to "I'm OK", without giving anything away about Irene's fate. He very much seems "not OK" - especially the way he holds out his hand for the phone. (And poor John having to lie to try to help him).

Actually, if Irene ever does come back for a cameo (outside of the mind palace), Sherlock's going to have some explaining to do.

Vhanja · December 30, 2014 5:51 pm

Liberty wrote:
Yes, exactly - that's what I meant by " he can't tell John". He's still protecting Irene .... and we get a similar situation later, in TRF, when he can't tell John very important things. But he doesn't need to tell John that Irene's alive - he just needs to give John the message that he's OK. The way he acts in that final scene with John gives the impression that he's devastated by the death. I suppose something similar goes on the first time Irene "dies" too. He's so impenetrable and inscrutable that it wouldn't take much for him to tip the scales from *I'm not OK" to "I'm OK", without giving anything away about Irene's fate. He very much seems "not OK" - especially the way he holds out his hand for the phone. (And poor John having to lie to try to help him).

Actually, if Irene ever does come back for a cameo (outside of the mind palace), Sherlock's going to have some explaining to do.

According to IMDB, she is listed as starring in S4E1 (not the special).

I have no trouble at all understanding that this is something Sherlock can't or won't talk about it. I'm not expecting a heartfelt and teary confession of emotions to John. Even just saying "I don't want to talk about it" would be fine. Just acknowledge that he is even there.

besleybean · December 30, 2014 5:53 pm

God I hope we're not going to see the steamy night in Karachi!

Last edited by besleybean (December 30, 2014 5:53 pm)