Liberty wrote:

Would Sherlock have kept that secret from John, though, if Mary had asked?  What about John's safety?  He does tell John as soon as he can - if he hadn't been shot that might have been the minute Mary left.   So I can see that it would have been a gamble to go down the preferred route.

Sherlock can withold things from John if he deems it neccessary. And if he saw that Mary is rational and that she asks his help, I believe he would have no problem not telling John before speaking with Mary about her trouble.

But after she shot him, he had no more reason to keep secret about her true nature from John. Because with that deed she proved to be reckless, dangerous and unpredictable - and thus a menace to John.

@ Vhanja, I don't agree with you about Sherlock, but I can see what you're saying about Mary.   She did huge, big bad things, but a bit of banter about the baby's name (with somebody who tends to banter in that way himself) is not one of them.    I think that if Mary had been who she'd appeared to be, it would hardly be noticed. 

@ Susigo Yes, I think they did go too far.  And then didn't go far enough to excuse it (the shooting). 

@ all, I think Sherlock tells John mainly because he's afraid Mary will kill him to stop him telling.  He doesn't trust her at that point.  So yes, I do think it would have been a better move for her to appeal to him ... but I can see that from her point of view, his silence wouldn't have been guaranteed in that moment, AND that she possibly comes from a culture of fear, where people get people to do what they want with the threat of death.  And also she didn't know that it would take John five minutes to get there - it was quicker to shoot than negotiate.

And I think she does get some punishment (although not nearly as much as Sherlock).  I take it that the telegram from CAM at the wedding is her first sign that he's on to her (judging from her reaction).  Later the same day she finds out that she's pregnant.   She goes off on honeymoon, comes back and very shortly after goes to kill CAM (we don't know her motivations, good or bad, if she's protecting anyone, etc. - although it's pretty certain that she's protecting herself).   (The timing of going to CAM's office at the same time as Sherlock is a bit too much of a coincidence - I thought that CAM had planned it.   But it could be just that because John has gone off with Sherlock, she has a clear bit of time away from him to do it).

She knows (but we don't find out till later) that CAM might have her killed at any time - hence the urgency.  (I'm not clear about how much she knows about why CAM is using her, and that if she's dead, CAM will use John instead - but if she knows this she's protecting John too). 

Her punishment, then, is waiting for months with CAM alive.   It's not just about waiting to see if John will forgive her.   There are other threats to her too - that John and Sherlock might turn her in (not so likely, or they'd have done it earlier) or (much more likely) that CAM will use her in some way or have her killed.  She is in fear of her life, and there's nothing she can do about it.  I don't think that at that point, John and Sherlock would accept her assassinating CAM, so if she wants to stay with John she has to leave him alive and herself in danger.   The sensible thing for her to do would be to disappear and create a new identity - why doesn't she?  There could be some sinister reason (she's watching John and Sherlock), or it could be just that she really wants to be with John and is prepared to risk her life for it. 

Anyway, that's her punishment - months of putting her own life at risk, not knowing if John will take her back anyway. 

Now, I'm missing out loads here that might lead us in different directions, towards Mary being a villain or whatever.  I'm just trying to write from Mary's point of view.  And that's the trouble - we don't GET Mary's point of view.  She's a cipher. 

I hear you, Susi, too many coincidences.,..the acknowledged ones(so far) being that Mary and Sherlock both sought out Janine, to get to CAM.
CAM himself set up the little bonfire for John, to see how far he could push Sherlock...
Moriarty seems to reappear, just when Sherlock is needing a way out.,.,.
Then don't get us started on the number of fake deaths in this show...are we still counting?

Well, Irene's death was a fake, too. But as for the rest I agree, mrshouse. These are no coincidences but planned events. And there might be a plan behind Mary meeting John as well for all that we know. 
 

Sorry, I think I wasn't clear.  I meant that Cam, Sherlock and Mary all planned their incidences!

Not only could I imagine it, that is what I first thought...
Obviously the team have to keep some scerets, but there is no indication on the commentary that there is any more.
Though to be honest, if it did turn out she was a plant(which is what I used to refer to her as),...it wouldn't really affect the story too much...possibly only increase her love  for John and maybe make it more tragic if she's seen off.

Well yes, that's what I meant...and I feel  I was a bit clearer this time!
But anyway, I'm not sure if it all fits together:
If Mary was a plant...
For me, as soon as she was wirh John she fell in love with him, so wasn't prepared to go through with anything to do with him.
She didn't shoot Sherlock in the head when she had the chance, so I'm not certain she was after him.
I do think she was after CAM...which doesn't fit in with her being after anyone else

Last edited by besleybean (December 29, 2014 12:16 pm)

Mary says there has been 6 months of silence...though it comes up on either the commentary or in the Chronicles I think, I can't remember...
There is a quuck reference to John having been in the spare room...not back at Baker street.
Cam also expalins that Mary has people after her and he could tell them where she is..

Besides which, I damn well hope Mary had been at risk as this is about the only excuse for Sherlock murdering CAM.

Last edited by besleybean (December 29, 2014 1:19 pm)

SolarSystem wrote:

And the way in which she reacts to John finally talking to her again... oh god, this just makes me go You really deserve to be ignored by him for the rest of your life, love.
 

This is actually the only part of her behaviour in HLV that I kind of understand. It seems to me Mary was sure that she would be rejected by John at this point and so she reacted agressivelly and defensively like a wounded animal in order to spare herself from the further pain. She probably didn´t think she can make things worse by her snark - and anticipated that John´s rejection would be more swift after that. That´s why John´s sudden forgiveness came as such a surprise to her.

What I found unbelievably off-putting in her behaviour there was the fact that she calmly accepted the invitation into the house of people whose son she cold-bloodedly executed for no reason and once she was among them, she continued her falsely-sweet role of an ordinary girl, accepting their hospitality with a smile and chatting with them as their best friend. And all the time she was the one who brought such pain upon them by shooting Sherlock. If she had any decency in her body, she would have refused such an invitation. If Moftiss thought she would come as endearing and lovely in this scene, they were dead wrong - she seemed incredibly callous.