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December 27, 2014 8:36 pm  #1221


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I suggest we don't watch the episodes any more and just listen to the team's words (including Ian, of course) -> shorter, cheaper, more efficient 


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December 27, 2014 8:38 pm  #1222


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Actually I was able to work it out for myself, by watching the episode and I'm sure plenty of others in the fandom did too.
In fact from linking right back to the Pilot, to HLV...it all makes sense.

Last edited by besleybean (December 27, 2014 8:39 pm)


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December 27, 2014 8:42 pm  #1223


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

You will be surprised that even I thought like that - for a few weeks, when I still didn't get the things that were just wrong.

(Before I saw your edit)

Last edited by Harriet (December 27, 2014 8:43 pm)


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

December 27, 2014 8:43 pm  #1224


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I agree. Watching Sherlock and John from the Pilot to the tarmac scene in HLV makes a lot of sense. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
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December 27, 2014 9:56 pm  #1225


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

And the team can describe whatever they want, maybe they just have a completely different idea about what a "beautiful Christmas reconciliation" should look like than I do. And that's totally fine.


___________________________________________________
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December 27, 2014 10:02 pm  #1226


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

But some of us agree with them.


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December 27, 2014 10:08 pm  #1227


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Okay, let's consider for a second the reconciliation is supposed to be wonderful (one of the scenes I disliked the most tbh, and I remember my whole family being unnerved to the end) why destroy it by the old and absolutely revolting snark and make the scene end like doggy and his owner again??


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 27, 2014 10:14 pm  #1228


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

It's a loving couple having a bit of fun with each other.


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December 27, 2014 10:24 pm  #1229


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

John doesn't look like he's got lots of fun tbh. And Mary's face is not like she makes fun about John not getting to decide the kids name, she's dead serious. Where's the fun?

Last edited by mrshouse (December 27, 2014 10:26 pm)


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 27, 2014 10:28 pm  #1230


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

It's the way couples often carry on with each other.


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December 27, 2014 10:32 pm  #1231


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

When the one is forgiven a deadly mistake and just had a nervous breakdown because of his greatest fear to be left alone? Being forgiven without any remorse, not having done anything to deserve this gift and you react with snark? And it's just supposed to be "a couple's way"? Lame....

Last edited by mrshouse (December 27, 2014 10:35 pm)


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 27, 2014 10:35 pm  #1232


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Well, that's your choice...but I enjoyed it.


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December 28, 2014 12:04 am  #1233


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

To be truthful, I find Mary´s characteristics and her dealings with John quite realistic. I´ve seen couples like that in real life - where woman was all snark and a henpecked man took it quietly and even gladly, like a doggie.

It is also not unusual in literature, movies or television that a protagonist of a story is a genuinely bad person or a person who does not respect common morality - and that such person is described as victorious or successful in her life precisely because she is such a scum. So that can´t be the reason for dislike of Mary either.

What really makes Mary repulsive, no matter what the authors and actors say, is the writing which makes her stand above the rules set firmly for all the other characters present in the story. For example - Sherlock as a protagonist of a story is cruelly punished for every misdeed he has done in the narrative. He fakes his death in TRF - he dies for real in HLV. He lies to Janine - Janine gets back at him by cutting off his morphine in the hospital. He annoys his friends - he gets punched and slapped around. And such "karma" works similarily for the rest of characters too.

Mary, on the other hand, is treated like a category of her own. She shoots Sherlock and makes him to die (and, as people mostly tend to forget, indirectly causes the suicide of Lord Smallwood by this act) - and except some harsh words from John she is never punished for the blood ashe has on her hands. She not only lies to Janine, she hits her so hard Janine actually bleeds from her head and looses consciousness - and not only is this assault entirely forgotten, but Janine´s injury disappears completely (and conveniently) and is never mentioned again in the story at all. No karma works for Mary, she is always absolved of any guilt and any responsibility. This heavily reduces her character into (appropriately named) Mary Sue and creates dissonance that would be always to some extent visible and felt by the audience, no matter how hard the authors try to deny it.  


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

December 28, 2014 12:13 am  #1234


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I don't think John is a "doggie", but if you see Mary as snarky and John just "taking it" - look at what he has put up with from Sherlock for several years! Sherlock has insulted him more times than you can count, hit him, performed an experiment on him that made him absolutely terrified, shut him out on several occasions even though John does nothing but care for Sherlock, and been lied to and kept in the dark for two years. 

If John can ever be viewed as a "henpecked man", it's from Sherlock, not Mary.

I don't think Mary isn't punished. She is confronted with a vicious rage from John, where he shows nothing but contempt for her. Then she is left in total silence for several months, all the while carrying John's child and not knowing what will happen and if John will ever forgive her. 

How long did it take John to forgive Sherlock? How long was Sherlock treated with John's anger and silence? Two days? A week, at the very most? Sherlock was off the hook much quicker than Mary.

Last edited by Vhanja (December 28, 2014 12:13 am)


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December 28, 2014 8:14 am  #1235


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Yeah I think it's the usual sort of banter between couples.


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December 28, 2014 8:19 am  #1236


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Does someone (who can create gifs or screenshots better than me) have a pic of John's expression right after "forgiving" Mary? To me, he looks neither happy nor relieved. He still looks tense. IMO.


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December 28, 2014 8:23 am  #1237


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

Vhanja wrote:

How long did it take John to forgive Sherlock? How long was Sherlock treated with John's anger and silence? Two days? A week, at the very most? Sherlock was off the hook much quicker than Mary.

But then, Sherlock lied to John because he wanted to protect John.
Mary nearly killed Sherlock and lied to John to protect herself.
Not comparable to me, sorry.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

December 28, 2014 8:25 am  #1238


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I think Mary does get some punishment, including sitting in the "naughty chair"!  Those months when she was waiting for John's decision must have been pretty hard (and she was also in a dangerous position - Magnussen still had her information, John and Sherlock now knew the truth too).   I'm glad that they didn't make John violent towards her, to be honest.  I think the trouble is that Sherlock gets over-punished in the extreme!

 

December 28, 2014 8:39 am  #1239


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

I think they all had punishment in different ways.
Yes Sherlock kind of comes off worse, though he sort of brings it on himself for noble reasons...
I think this is why he gets brought back.

Last edited by besleybean (December 28, 2014 8:40 am)


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

December 28, 2014 10:33 am  #1240


Re: My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

nakahara wrote:

To be truthful, I find Mary´s characteristics and her dealings with John quite realistic. I´ve seen couples like that in real life - where woman was all snark and a henpecked man took it quietly and even gladly, like a doggie.

It is also not unusual in literature, movies or television that a protagonist of a story is a genuinely bad person or a person who does not respect common morality - and that such person is described as victorious or successful in her life precisely because she is such a scum. So that can´t be the reason for dislike of Mary either.

What really makes Mary repulsive, no matter what the authors and actors say, is the writing which makes her stand above the rules set firmly for all the other characters present in the story. For example - Sherlock as a protagonist of a story is cruelly punished for every misdeed he has done in the narrative. He fakes his death in TRF - he dies for real in HLV. He lies to Janine - Janine gets back at him by cutting off his morphine in the hospital. He annoys his friends - he gets punched and slapped around. And such "karma" works similarily for the rest of characters too.

Mary, on the other hand, is treated like a category of her own. She shoots Sherlock and makes him to die (and, as people mostly tend to forget, indirectly causes the suicide of Lord Smallwood by this act) - and except some harsh words from John she is never punished for the blood ashe has on her hands. She not only lies to Janine, she hits her so hard Janine actually bleeds from her head and looses consciousness - and not only is this assault entirely forgotten, but Janine´s injury disappears completely (and conveniently) and is never mentioned again in the story at all. No karma works for Mary, she is always absolved of any guilt and any responsibility. This heavily reduces her character into (appropriately named) Mary Sue and creates dissonance that would be always to some extent visible and felt by the audience, no matter how hard the authors try to deny it.  

Thank you,  nakahara.  One of the best analyses I have read on the subject.
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
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