BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Harriet · December 16, 2014 6:23 pm

Of course Mary and John got married (isn't it odd that we don't see anything of the act?) but the film shows they are not the actual couple.

silverblaze · December 16, 2014 6:25 pm

The film is not about their wedding per se. It's about Sherlock's take on it. Hence the angle.

mrshouse · December 16, 2014 6:31 pm

That's true. And it might be the reason why this episode feels heartbreakingly sad.

SusiGo · December 16, 2014 6:31 pm

Many promo shots and stills show only Sherlock and John. When the Radio Times did their show of the year poll, their Sherlock pic of all the pics they could have chosen from series 3 was Sherlock and John in morning dress, just the both of them. It is not just the "fangirls", many media also perceive their relationship in this way. Just think of the Korean trailers.

Liberty · December 16, 2014 6:35 pm

silverblaze wrote:
The film is not about their wedding per se. It's about Sherlock's take on it. Hence the angle.

Yes. And about Sherlock and John's relationship.

Harriet · December 16, 2014 6:36 pm

Right. The wedding doesn't matter much.

silverblaze · December 16, 2014 6:38 pm

Because Sherlock is the protagonist and it's from his POV.

Harriet · December 16, 2014 6:43 pm

Well, to him it seems to matter a lot as we see at the end.

SusiGo · December 16, 2014 6:45 pm

The thing is that we do not see the actual wedding, just the party that follows it. Sherlock as best man is present in church but this is the only part of the wedding - and the most important one - and we do not see it. Therefore I deduce that this being Sherlock's POV he does not feel comfortable with it. Remember the scene in 221B that precedes the wedding. Not exactly a happy man.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 16, 2014 6:46 pm)

Liberty · December 16, 2014 6:57 pm

Oh yes, there is a sense of loss and insecurity. But I don't know if it would have added anything to show the actual wedding.

mrshouse · December 16, 2014 7:04 pm

Not plotwise, no. But it us a piece of the puzzle why some fans have an odd feeling about John and Mary as OTP and feel sympathetic towards Sherlock.

SolarSystem · December 16, 2014 7:18 pm

Harriet wrote:
Right. The wedding doesn't matter much.

Right. And as I'm sure we'll find out eventually, the marriage doesn't matter much, either. Because in the end it's not about Mary and John, but about Sherlock and John. This marriage is just another one of those "boy found - boy lost - boy found - boy lost"-episodes which in the end will lead to Johnlock, in whatever shape or form.

SusiGo · December 16, 2014 7:18 pm

And we have a whole thread dedicated to the subject why this wedding seems so strange.

besleybean · December 17, 2014 6:47 am

It doesn't seem strange to me at all(bearing in mind my views on marriage), only in the obvious,....the Sherlock impact and Mary's reaction to 'CAM'.
For Sherlock I mean his uncoventional speech, which is still the best I have ever heard and I stood up and applauded him!
Besides, whatever we feel about it, the commentaries and all literature refer to this as a genuine marriage between 2 people deeply in love and committed to one another...and that is what I see.

Last edited by besleybean (December 17, 2014 6:48 am)

mrshouse · December 17, 2014 7:47 am

I don't know, bb. What you say could easily cover up to three threads and gets way off topic here. Personally I could write pages about if this is supposed to be the face of true love as shown especially in HLV, what Martin and Amanda show considering chemistry or the lack thereof in this particular show ( nota bene it's not about them as private couple or them together in another project as I don't know anything about it!), how the show or maybe even creative decisions are negatively influenced by a rabid fanbase that mingle with the private life of Martin and Amanda and influences the show. Furthermore about deliberately diminuishing what they have in Martin and Benedict and their great chemistry together. But there have been rants about negative vibs here lately, so I'll stop myself here.
Not getting Johnlock won't stop me loving and watching the show. But other developements could very well make me.
But I'm just one little sand grain in the fandom, the Mofftiss surely consider loosing a couple of fans on the way, LOL.

SusiGo · December 17, 2014 7:51 am

Have a look at the thread, besley. There are a lot of arguments that have nothing to do with Johnlock and all with the odd choice of guests, etc.

Vhanja · December 17, 2014 10:19 am

I think the choices for the wedding - guest, not show anything that doesn't involve Sherlock etc - are choices done by the writers to keep the show about Sherlock. It wouldn't be out of place, though, to see some more between John and Mary, and I find interesting that the one episode that more or less only about the wedding between John and Mary, is described by the writers as a love declaratiion from Sherlock to John.

Having that said, I do honestly believe John and Mary love each other. I love their relationship, it's so wonderful to see the chemistry, bond and respect the two have for each other.

In my mind (which I just though of now as I'm typing this) is that Mary is for John the easy choice - female, easy to be with, approved by the surroundings, a loving woman, a life in the suburbs with a child on it's way.

Sherlock, on the other hand, is the hard choice. Male (a whole new ball game), not easy to be with in a long stretch, selfish, manipulative, will never function in a regular life (but neither will John), will probably never be as easy or as approved by society as Mary. But it gives John more in the long run.

SusiGo · December 17, 2014 10:23 am

I very much agree with the last paragraphs. Well said.

As for the wedding - what always strikes me is that is seems to happen in a sort of vacuum. We get some well-known faces but apart from that strangers with whom Mary and John do not interact at all. And inviting your ex who is obviously still very much interested in you is not exactly the right thing to do. Of course I know that it shows us how Sherlock takes care of these things and yet … it feels strange.

Vhanja · December 17, 2014 10:29 am

I think it has to do with the scenes that where shown. First pictures before the church - can't speak to anyone there. Then the best man speech - John and Mary can't speak with anyone else there either. After that, things go a bit crazy with Major Sholto, and then it's the dance. Bride and groom dance first, but I am sure that after Sherlock left, they spoke with other people. It just wasn't something they could do in the scenes shown. I've been to several weddings, and it's not easy at all for the bride and groom to mingle with everybody.

As for the ex, I don't think Mary realised he was still in love with her. In the last wedding I attended, the groom's ex sat right by me.

mrshouse · December 17, 2014 10:30 am

Vhanja wrote:
Having that said, I do honestly believe John and Mary love each other. I love their relationship, it's so wonderful to see the chemistry, bond and respect the two have for each other.

Interesting, how things are different for each fan. The Mary-John-love-story-arc gave me exactly nothing. Their chemistry never reached my sofa.

Vhanja wrote:
In my mind (which I just though of now as I'm typing this) is that Mary is for John the easy choice - female, easy to be with, approved by the surroundings, a loving woman, a life in the suburbs with a child on it's way.
Sherlock, on the other hand, is the hard choice. Male (a whole new ball game), not easy to be with in a long stretch, selfish, manipulative, will never function in a regular life (but neither will John), will probably never be as easy or as approved by society as Mary. But it gives John more in the long run.

That is an interesting take. I never thought about that.