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December 16, 2014 7:25 am  #3021


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the term "gayest show on tv" was said a bit tounge-in-cheek. My personal interpretation of that statement, that could be far off, is that it's meant to comment on the in-show jokes about it. Two grown men living together, being single, being very close as friends, being believed to be gay by those around them etc. And that all this together makes it "the gayest show on tv".

I might be wrong, though. 

And, yes, HLV. "I am not a hero. I am a high-functioning sosiopath - Merry Christmas!"

Last edited by Vhanja (December 16, 2014 7:26 am)


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December 16, 2014 7:27 am  #3022


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think you're right.


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December 16, 2014 7:32 am  #3023


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

lil wrote:

Its pretty hard to believe that the fanboy writers didn't discuss Sherlock Holmes sexuality at all in the years they thought about and talked about writing Sherlock on those now infamous train journeys..or that TPLOSH never came up and the pre bbc johnlock talk...there does seem something subservient in the way they talk about Sherlocks sexuality...you have to wonder if it isn't serving as a means to a definitive endgame, otherwise much of the stuff on and off the show seems surplus.

Oh, I'm sure they did talk about it!  But it looks like they didn't decide until S2. 

What I genuinely see in the show, is that Sherlock's sexuality doesn't come into it.  Apart from that one episode with Irene, and even then, it's a glimpse and then it's quickly put back in it's place - just enough to establish that he isn't actually asexual but is controlled. 

They didn't need to use Irene in that way -  I know they will have watched all adaptations of Sherlock Holmes and will have thought it through carefully, though. 

 

December 16, 2014 7:33 am  #3024


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

About Sherlock having a low sex drive - I don't know if that's the case.  His porn tastes are "normal" according to HLV, and if his sex drive was low he might not bother with porn at all (interesting that he does, though - he doesn't feel the need to avoid it to keep his sex drive under control!). And there's what other people have said (like Benedict) about him.  He's kind of self-created as somebody who is above that sort of thing, but I don't think that's because he lacked the drive.  It's like his emotions in generaly - he's definitely emotional rather than unemotional, but aspires not to be. 

 

 

December 16, 2014 7:43 am  #3025


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't think he lacks the drive, but it could very well be lower than average. Pure speculation, though.

As for his porn preferences, I know some has attributed that to him doing research before having his "relationship" with Janine. Not sure if that fits, though, as they never had sex.

It baffles me why Moftiss would ever put his porn preference in, though. It's like the knee grab-scene. Both of those things could easily have been removed without affecting the show at all, and both things leads to tons of speculation.

Sometimes I think Moftiss are pulling our legs on purpose.


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December 16, 2014 7:51 am  #3026


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, quite possibly!    Stephen Moffat strikes me as being playful in that way.

In the Elle/sex interview, Benedict did say that Sherlock would watch porn if he was going to have sex (so maybe he was considering it!).  I just wondered if he would avoid it (and avoid acting on it, if you know what I mean) to keep things under control.
 

 

December 16, 2014 7:55 am  #3027


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yeah, could be he did it just in case. Well, he did also say in that interview that if Sherlock ever had sex, he would choose to lose control. He would do it properly (like with being best man - again goes back to his "all or nothing"-attitude, I feel).


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December 16, 2014 8:28 am  #3028


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

Oh, quite possibly!    Stephen Moffat strikes me as being playful in that way.

In the Elle/sex interview, Benedict did say that Sherlock would watch porn if he was going to have sex (so maybe he was considering it!).  I just wondered if he would avoid it (and avoid acting on it, if you know what I mean) to keep things under control.
 

Similar like Martin´s remark about "gayest show in television", Benedict´s interview in Elle is supposed to be playful and tongue in cheek. Benedict was simply goofing off. He is known as a talkative man who will go on and on with such speeches if you let him, so no surprise that his "Sherlock as a lover" fantasy was so long. It doesn´t mean much more than a joke.

Personally, I doubt Sherlock and Irene were together "that way" in Karachi. It´s pretty obvious from Sherlock´s behaviour in S3 he is uneasy or downright disturbed by the idea of sex with women.

In TSOT Molly sais to him: "Me and Tom, we have a lot of sex."
Sherlock stiffens and the cricket sounds ring in the backround.

In that same episode, Janine jokes: "But no sex, OK?"
Sherlock makes a double take and is quite flustered for a minute.

Sherlock´s relationship with Janine remained chaste, probably because Sherlock didn´t want to take advantage of her body the same way he did take advantage of her trust. It would be highly unethical. And yet - Janine is hotblooded, beautiful, witty, inteligent, charming, very sexy woman. It is incredible that a straight man would be so immune to her allure. Still, when they are kissing, Sherlock does it without passion as if he was kissing a piece of wood. Later, when he is offering her an engagement ring and they find her passed out on the ground, he even remarks: "Oh, do they really do that?" as if women were some funny species from another planet.

Benedict can say what he wants in interviews - but from the way he acts in front of the camera I have a strong doubt that Sherlock has any sexual experience with women.
 

Last edited by nakahara (December 16, 2014 8:31 am)


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

December 16, 2014 8:39 am  #3029


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I find it interesting that having sex with Janine would be too unethical, but pretending to be her boyfriend when she had feelings for him - that was not too unethical. Sherlogic, I guess. 


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December 16, 2014 8:51 am  #3030


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

I find it interesting that having sex with Janine would be too unethical, but pretending to be her boyfriend when she had feelings for him - that was not too unethical. Sherlogic, I guess. 

Lying to Janine and misusing her trust was unethical too, but still, could be excused (if you squinted) by "the greater good" - stopping Magnussen from blackmailing more people. Sleeping with her, on the other hand, would tip the scales to the other side and would be almost as bad as Magnussen´s slimy dealings.
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

December 16, 2014 8:56 am  #3031


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

nakahara wrote:

Lying to Janine and misusing her trust was unethical too, but still, could be excused (if you squinted) by "the greater good" - stopping Magnussen from blackmailing more people. Sleeping with her, on the other hand, would tip the scales to the other side and would be almost as bad as Magnussen´s slimy dealings.
 

Well, Janine seem to disagree. "Just once would have been nice" - so she was actually bummed by them not having had sex, even after she knew he was faking it.

Another interesting bit is his reaction to that statement. He immediately seem uneasy. He seems simply not able to flirt or casually talk about sex at all. But he did so at the wedding - with Janine. 
 


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December 16, 2014 9:04 am  #3032


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Janine was certainly keen in entering relationship with Sherlock. I still wonder if her motives were entirely friendly.

If I remember correctly, Sherlock´s flirting mostly consisted of his efforts to find another, more suitable partner for Janine. It was a funny evasion from his side.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

December 16, 2014 9:07 am  #3033


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Nah, there was also his "Down, girl!"-comment and him showing his dance skills and how he loves to dance. And as everybody was dancing, he immediately heads to her.

Well, her motives would be more than friendly.


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December 16, 2014 9:11 am  #3034


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Erm, sorry, but no, Vhanja, he does not talk casually about sex with Janine, in the first scene together she goes :"No sex, ok?" in a very light manner but he's very much taken aback and immediately driving the topic away from himself.


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"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 16, 2014 9:17 am  #3035


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yeah, I was thinking more about the light-hearted flirting between them afterwards.


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December 16, 2014 12:27 pm  #3036


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I do see a certain sympathy on Sherlock's side but no sexual attraction. John was with Mary, Mrs Hudson with Mr Chatterjee, Molly with Tom, so he probably tried to fit in and have some fun doing a thing he really likes. And he is definitely never relaxed when women talk to him about sex - Irene, Molly, Janine. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

December 16, 2014 12:31 pm  #3037


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

No, I don't see any sexual attraction towards Janine, just some light-hearted flirting that shows he's a but more adept at, and interested in, talking with women now then he was a few seasons ago.


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December 16, 2014 1:10 pm  #3038


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think the only one he shows sexual attraction to is Irene. And even then it's kinda weird like 'oh, what is this?' It's as if he doesn't understand what's happening. With Janine, I thought it was more like a friendly flirty kinda thingy. 

 

December 16, 2014 1:24 pm  #3039


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

silverblaze wrote:

I think the only one he shows sexual attraction to is Irene. And even then it's kinda weird like 'oh, what is this?' It's as if he doesn't understand what's happening. With Janine, I thought it was more like a friendly flirty kinda thingy. 

I agree. That is exactly how I see it as well.
 


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December 16, 2014 4:43 pm  #3040


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think he genuinely liked them both, but there was more of an attraction to Irene.
Yet it could never be, between them.
He uses Janine, though she gets her own back.


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