BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 7:39 pm

Really, nakahara, queerbaiting, what an ugly word. It is just a nice little gay joke, that is all.

besleybean · December 15, 2014 7:44 pm

Well that's what the team call it and I guess they would know.

nakahara · December 15, 2014 7:57 pm

Yes, if you call a horse "a dog", suddenly it really becomes a dog... or not?

besleybean · December 15, 2014 8:05 pm

The hound?!

Liberty · December 15, 2014 8:25 pm

I think they explain it a little in that interview I posted a while back. It's not queerbaiting, it's not an "are they/aren't they" thing - they establish early on that John goes for women, for instance. The "joke" is about how people perceive them - that in modern society, people just assume that two men of that age living together are gay (and it's true - I might make that assumption myself).

Liberty · December 15, 2014 8:33 pm

Vhanja wrote:
So then the question is if ASiB was meant to show that Sherlock was gay or straight?

I suppose so. Or maybe not to show us for definite, but it looks like the writers definitely had that back story. I thought he might be left ambiguous - and to the audience, he maybe still is (one swallow doesn't make a summer and all that), but it sounds as if, for the writers, they have decided one way or another. The wording - gay or not - seems to suggest he's either one or the other, rather than bisexual or ambiguous. Mark doesn't say which one (but it seems odd that they would throw Irene in there, in the "sex/love" episode, if they'd just decided he was gay. My personal suspicion is that they hadn't settled on an orientation but decided to go for straight because they wanted to use Irene in that particular way).

Not to say that he can't change, or that the writers can't change their minds, of course. But it's interesting to know how they've perceived it - S1 - ambiguous/undecided sexuality. S2 - either gay or straight.

It maybe shows why Benedict is so adamant about the attraction to Irene. He'd probably been told what they'd decided (or maybe he just thought it was implicit in the script).

Last edited by Liberty (December 15, 2014 8:35 pm)

Harriet · December 15, 2014 8:35 pm

I think you all will be quite surprised by good old BBC. Has anyone of you read the documents I recommended? The BBC would never accept such a script or intention anymore.

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 8:38 pm

I agree, Harriet.

And it is not just a joke and not just about perception. But have been over this so often.

Last edited by SusiGo (December 15, 2014 8:47 pm)

Liberty · December 15, 2014 8:43 pm

The documents (if it's what I'm thinking of - it's a while since I've read them) showed that the BBC was looking for greater LGBT representation, and would like to commission a gay story. Mark's comments (that they hadn't decided if Sherlock was gay or not) show that this isn't it.

(And let's face it, if it was, it would be a terrible one! The jokes aren't quite so funny if the characters actually are gay and closeted).

Last edited by Liberty (December 15, 2014 8:44 pm)

Harriet · December 15, 2014 8:48 pm

Well, some here seem to think it is a funny joke. But BBC doesn't want to offend LGTB people anymore.

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 8:48 pm

As for creators' quotes. Here is one from Steven:

"A Scandal in Bohemia" isn't quite the story everyone wants it to be of Sherlock Holmes developing a crush. In fact, it isn't like that at all.

silverblaze · December 15, 2014 8:50 pm

I thought the document could've referred to Jeckyll (or whatever that was called). As far as I remember that was a detective show with a gay protagonist.

nakahara · December 15, 2014 8:50 pm

And how exactly would they prove that Sherlock is straight?
Would they bring Irene Adler back?
Would they pair him with Janine again?
Hudslock?
Would they let him sleep with prostitutes like in Elementary?
With this straightened version of Sherlock and John in a happy marriage with children, how would they prevent their story from becoming a soap-opera?
Because everything of this would be such a sharp disociance with the canon that I cease to see how it would not ruin the entire series immediately.

SusiGo · December 15, 2014 8:50 pm

Harriet wrote:
Well, some here seem to think it is a funny joke. But BBC doesn't want to offend LGTB people anymore.

Yes. And there is big difference between the "I'm not gay" situations and e.g. the Sherlock only surviving because John is in danger or the scene on the dancefloor. This is what shows me they love each other, not assumptions made by other people.

besleybean · December 15, 2014 8:55 pm

Nobody has ever denied that they love each other.

Liberty · December 15, 2014 9:01 pm

Yes, it's explicit in the story. It's said out loud.

I don't think they need to prove that Sherlock is straight, ever. It isn't an issue (except, perhaps in that one episode). He doesn't go in for sex. So it's just backstory for the writers. And possibly subject to change.

nakahara · December 15, 2014 9:04 pm

Personally, I cease to see the neccessity to confirm his heterosexuality if the writers don´t want to go anywhere with this. Why not letting it at asexuality, then?

Liberty · December 15, 2014 9:06 pm

Oh, I agree. And although they've confirmed that he's not asexual by orientation, he pretty much is by choice and practice. And apparently normally deals with it perfectly well. It's not an issue for him.

besleybean · December 15, 2014 9:08 pm

Asexual is by birth.
Celibacy is by choice.

silverblaze · December 15, 2014 9:08 pm

Sherlock doesn't do sex and relationships so whether he's biologically straight, gay or bisexual is kinda a moot point.