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December 15, 2014 7:47 am  #2901


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This is not going to happen. There have been so many developments over the past nine episodes, small hints and looks and gestures, it is a slow and soft approach. They are not suddenly going to beat us over the head with romp in bed. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

December 15, 2014 7:58 am  #2902


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

This is not going to happen. There have been so many developments over the past nine episodes, small hints and looks and gestures, it is a slow and soft approach. They are not suddenly going to beat us over the head with romp in bed. 
 

Well, I don't think it will happen at all - in the show. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

December 15, 2014 10:00 am  #2903


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This was posted in another thread, but I was listening and thought some of it was relevant here:
http://youtu.be/TJ7RswJwKao

It's old (2012), so there are no revelations, but the last third or so gives Benedict and Stephen's on Sherlock's relationship with John and with Irene.   They talk a little bit about playing on the assumptions people make about two men living together, but seem clear that it's a friendship.  Benedict describes Sherlock as asexual to a point - until he meets Irene.  S2 shows Sherlock dealing with the possibility of attraction, fear and loss.  Sherlock disdains sex in favour of his work, Irene uses sex in her work, and it's not important to either of them - they think they've dealt with that until they meet each other.  And "he's got a little tiny thing for the bad girl, not that he'd ever admit it"!  Paraphrasing, and as I say, nothing new, but something to bear in mind - surely some of that has got to come across in ASIB? 

 

December 15, 2014 10:09 am  #2904


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Basically shooting down the entire Johnlock ship in two minutes flat.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

December 15, 2014 10:15 am  #2905


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This is pre-series 3 where we get a lot of women - including a naked Irene Adler - in Sherlock's head only to be dismissed, later followed by "It’s always you. John Watson, you keep me right."

I know many people who did not see Johnlock at all or said it was just a fanfic thing and got converted after series 3. So I would not rely on anything that has been said in 2012. Nothing to sink the ship here. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

December 15, 2014 10:31 am  #2906


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

But it's in ASIB that people are seeing Sherlock as attracted to John rather than Irene.  I think this helps to clear it up because they're specifically talking about S2 and that episode - or at least it explains what some of us are seeing.  (This IS supposed to be about Sherlock dealing with sex, something he thought he'd boxed away, in the form of Irene). 

 

December 15, 2014 10:33 am  #2907


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, people see the attraction because they look at what is in the episode and not what has been said in interviews. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

December 15, 2014 10:36 am  #2908


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty, the developement of feelings approaches slowly and softly in Sherlock. S3 makes that very clear. Irene is knocking over the head with pure sex, that is her only weapon. And I think we go round in circles to number scenes, where Sherlock could have reacted very very differently if seriously physically attracted to Irene.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 15, 2014 10:39 am  #2909


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

I agree as far as I am sure that they will not be fluffy and there are several way of showing a romantic attachment. You can be in love and still remain who you are. But we see over the episodes that there are indeed changes to their relationship and I am convinced that there will be more. There has to be room for an overall story arc, nothing remains static, so why should their relationship?
 

Oh, absolutely. They do change and develop, both of them. And so does their relationship. I just wouldn't want them to switch a light switch, and change their personalities over night.

And why should that happen? Why should a romantic relationship with all there is to it change their personalities? Does this usually happen when people are in a romantic relationship? I agree with Susi, you can be in such a relationship, you can marry the person you love and still remain who you are. 
I think we can be pretty sure that Mofftiss won't turn the show into one of those daily soaps, whatever their plans for Sherlock and John may be. And changing their personalities over night would just be bad, bad writing, if you ask me.
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

December 15, 2014 10:51 am  #2910


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Excactly. And this would need something each and every good love story would need: wonderful handling and writing of the scenes.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 15, 2014 10:52 am  #2911


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

But the interview isn't at odds with what's on screen.  In fact it would be strange if they were saying this and then Benedict played it as being sexually attracted to John rather than Irene.   It wouldn't make any sense. 

How would he have reacted differently, Mrshouse?  He disdains sex and has forsaken it in favour of his work - he's not going to actually DO it.   But thinking that side of himself is taken care of and under control, then being thrown off balance when he feels something he didn't expect - I do see that, and so the interview makes sense (AFTER seeing the episode!). 

If it really was a slow approach, this wouldn't make sense - they are quite clear here that they're not building up to Johnlock, but that John is interested in women and Sherlock is interested in himself (apart from when Irene surprises him).    They could change their minds at any time and put something new in, but I don't think they can backtrack. 

 

December 15, 2014 10:57 am  #2912


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'm sorry, Liberty, but with your last post you leave very little space for discussion, don't you think?


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 15, 2014 11:11 am  #2913


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I was trying to ask what you meant about Sherlock reacting differently to Irene if he'd been physically attracted (bearing that interview in mind).  It sounds like Stephen was trying to write it, and Benedict was trying to play it as if Sherlock was physically attracted.  So how do you think they should have done it differently?  Do you just mean that they should have showed actually sex (or a kiss or something)?  Or that maybe Sherlock should have told John what he felt so that it would have been said out loud?  (I'm not trying to put words in your mouth - just trying to think what you meant should have been done differently!).

 

December 15, 2014 11:13 am  #2914


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Apart from the fact that Mofftiss tend to lie the moment they open their mouths, I can only repeat that I prefer to go by what is presented to me on screen. And there is a lot we could talk about in terms of Johnlock or no Johnlock. It's not just how the actors play their parts, there is so much more. But I guess talking about any of this doesn't make a lot of sense when interviews and commentaries are deemed more important than the actual show. 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

December 15, 2014 11:19 am  #2915


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think interviews are important, because it shows what the writers and actors meant to come across. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

December 15, 2014 11:22 am  #2916


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty, I do not see physical reactions to her approaches at all tbh. The moment she approaches him naked his gaze is hardly shown wandering down the chin area, combined with her "Somebody loves you" directly aimed at John and him not denying it at all. When he is at his room it is John he calls after, directly after waking up. It's him he asks for, when they sit at the fireplace and she is very aggressively going at him. He is NOT hungry, how can you be clearer? He is fascinated by her cleverness, she beat him, but did you see a flicker of longing when she offers to satisfy him twice on the table? I don't, not even hot eye sex.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

December 15, 2014 11:24 am  #2917


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think there were some physical attraction from him to Irene. He wouldn't act on it, because he doesn't DO sex. It's distracting. But being very inexperienced when it comes to sex and emotions (possibly a virgin), I believe he experienced some unwanted physical reactions, and that he felt intimidated by her approaches. 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

December 15, 2014 11:29 am  #2918


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Vhanja wrote:

I think interviews are important, because it shows what the writers and actors meant to come across. 

If they have to explain what they wanted to get across, then I'd say they did a pretty bad job at getting it across in the first place. You should see what their intentions were when you watch the show.
Of course interviews and commentaries can be very interesting and give you new ideas and new perspectives about characters, scenes... but at the end of the day I prefer to do my interpretation of a tv show, a movie or a book on my own.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

December 15, 2014 11:34 am  #2919


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SolarSystem wrote:

If they have to explain what they wanted to get across, then I'd say they did a pretty bad job at getting it across in the first place. You should see what their intentions were when you watch the show.

Well, there are very different interepretation of Sherlock/John, and I don't think the writers or the actors did a bad job. 
 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

December 15, 2014 11:36 am  #2920


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

If there are different interpretations anyway, why do you need the creators to tell you what the 'right' interpretation is...? I honestly don't get this.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

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