Vhanja wrote:

So we have the inexusable behaviour of letting John go through hell for two years. Then he is so caught up in his own bubble that he can't fathom why John wouldn't be happy to see him. Even though he lacks the social skills to understand that by himself, Mycroft do tell him this. And Sherlock dismisses it - because everything revolves around him. 

And then, seeing John's reactions, he starts feeling guilty. And feeling guilty is not a good feeling, so Sherlock wants to get rid of it. Getting John's forgivess will help him get rid of it. So he stages the worst kind of emotional blackmail to a man who has several times already experienced the trauma of nearly dying. Because getting rid of his own guilt and restore emotional equlibrum is for Sherlock much more important than the trauma he puts John through.

I think he should consider himself lucky getting away with a bloody nose and bruised lip.

In the original story: Moriarty´s network was already unveiled and was gradually being destroyed by the police at the moment of Sherlock´s duel with Moriarty at Reichenbach Falls. Sherlock´s decision to fake his death was spontaneous after he defeated Moriarty - it was something of a whim. Sherlock was living a happy life incognito, visiting various countries and having exciting adventures. All that time, his reputation as the greatest detective and moral individual was intact and even Lestrade, who once abhored him, revered him as a god in his absence. Sherlock only decided to return when he heard about an interesting case that just took place in London. And yet John, who was left in belief of Sherlock´s death for three long years, forgave Sherlock completely, not holding him responsible for the unusual events and the malevolence of Moriarty´s gang that forced him into such behaviour in the first place. As a true friend should.

In the BBC Version: The Moriarty´s gang is in full power at the time Sherlock fakes his death. One of M´s people infiltrated Scotland Yard and is shadowing Lestrade, other person entered Sherlock´s own house under the guise of being the workman and has Mrs. Hudson in his aim. Four murderers moved in as Sherlock´s closest neighbours. There can be many more and nobody can be sure who they are or what would they do. In the process of fighting Moriarty, Sherlock´s reputation collapsed. Not only was he tarnished by the media as an absolute monster, but he was being accussed of severe crimes as well and was forced to be on the run or to get arrested. He whose biggest pride is to be a great detective lost this reputation too and was being introduced as a fraud to the public. After he flees, he must constantly fight with the members of Moriarty´s gang, being captured and severely tortured in Serbia. His brother knows where Sherlock is and how he suffers, but he only bothers to get Sherlock out of the danger when he needs him in London. Sure, being in such situation, Sherlock certainly had time to send John postcards with greetings, letting him know that he lives. 

Yet it is him who is an arse? Is it not actually John who feels that everything revolves around him?

Sherlock tells him that a parliament (which at that evening will be full of people, politicians and employees alike) will be destroyed and asks for John´s help and what does John do? He buttheads Sherlock viciously. Who cares about parliamentary employees and passers-by on the street below being killed? They are unimportant next to John´s hurt feelings. Because everything revolves around John. Let´s even injure Sherlock so that he will be delayed in his rescue attempt while taking care of his battered face. Sherlock´s protection of people from the aftereffect of madman´s orders (who just randomly killed dozens of innocents in S1, especially in The Great Game, just to make a point and whose supporters could kill Sherlock´s friends anytime, if they knew he was alive) also doesn´t count. John´s hurt feelings are above such lowly and unimportant things as human lives. 

In the Granada adaptation: John tags along Sherlock when they investigate the case and actively helps to catch Moran, disabling him with a punch when Sebastian Moran overpowers his friend in a fight. He proved himself as a invaluable companion and support to Sherlock.

In the BBC Version: John tags along Sherlock when they investigate the case because when he is left at home, bored, he soon starts to sprain people for fun and to jump at them wielding a tire-lever. But the moment when things go awry, he starts accusing Sherlock as if it was his fault somehow that all of this happened and even then he does not contribute one iota to stopping the bomb, just whines ineptly. 

Sherlock´s scaring John off that they would be blown to the air was not an emotional blackmail. It was a shock therapy, a kick-to-the-pants, so that John finally pulls his head out of his ass and finally let go of his petty vengeance in which he walloved throughout the whole episode. And it works! John suddenly sees what is important and he forgives Sherlock, because at the last moment of his life, he realises what a stupid thing it is to feel insulted over things that were not in Sherlock´s power to prevent.

Last edited by nakahara (December 14, 2014 8:11 pm)

Nakahara, thank you, thank you, thank you for your post. I agree with every word of it except for the very end bit, in that I don't think John has truly forgiven Sherlock, at least not in a way that Sherlock believes, if his actions in the rest of the series are anything to go by.

La Jolie wrote:

Mary - I don't believe the Chronicles haven't made it over into the New World yet? Why aren't we running a private mail order service on the boards to make sure you people over there get them, too?

I'm currently in a Latin American backwater, which is not helping my situation. I can't buy the Kindle edition because of stupid Amazon restrictions. So I have set up this elaborate scheme with the perfect cast of characters (John, Sarah, Molly, Mycroft....) to get me the book by sometime in May for nothing more than the cost of the book and a couple of beers for Mycroft since John and Sarah owe me for some work I did for them. The short of it is that John and Sarah are going home to the UK for the holidays. So John's mum in Hampshire will receive the book, it'll come to Canada in their luggage and be transferred to Molly who lives right on the US border and shops there frequently. Molly will bring the book to the US and use the super cheap USPS book rate to mail the book to Mycroft who is holidaying in the US. He'll hold onto it and give it to me when we meet up in late April or May.

So where there's a dedicated Sherlockian, absolutely anything is possible!

Mary

La Jolie wrote:

Oh, and I do have to defend Mycroft. I don't think he'd have left Sherlock to die in prison in Serbia if there hadn't been the Guy Fawkes plot. The way I read the Serbia scene in TEH, I think that by telling Sherlock about this plot, and to come back to investigate it, he was merely giving him a reason to actually stay conscious and upright long enough to get out of that prison and to safety. He wasn't going to cuddle him and say things like "it's over, I've got you, you'll be fine" because he is Mycroft, but he did see the need at that point to keep Sherlock interested in, well, life, and telling him he was needed for a big case was as good an incentive as any.
 

Oh, I don´t think Mycroft wanted to let Sherlock die. Mycroft must first and foremost work for the benefit of his country and it´s possible he would endanger it if he acted sooner. I also think he was sure that Sherlock would survive till he comes to his rescue. Still, that doesn´t change the fact that he appared by Sherlock´s side quite late - althrough it was no fault of his own.
 

maryagrawatson wrote:

So where there's a dedicated Sherlockian, absolutely anything is possible!

You could just have PM'ed any of the European regulars and asked them to send you a copy, you know.

And now I feel like John in TBB when Sherlock is dancing around him excitedly going on about the mechanics of short term memory, and John just pulls out his phone and goes "look, I took a picture".


BTW, we read the Bruce Partington case in TGG the same way. Of course he was interested in it and pursued it straight away, but he pretended to Mycroft that he wasn't, for NO reason except to annoy his brother, which IS totally immature.
 

Last edited by La Jolie (December 14, 2014 9:17 pm)

La Jolie wrote:

maryagrawatson wrote:

So where there's a dedicated Sherlockian, absolutely anything is possible!

You could just have PM'ed any of the European regulars and asked them to send you a copy, you know.  

Yeah, but then I would have had to pay a TON in shipping and waited till I got back to my cottage in June. This way, my only cost is the book itself and a six pack of beer and I get it about six weeks sooner! So it might sound convoluted, but it's really the most sensible way of doing it!

BTW, we read the Bruce Partington case in TGG the same way. Of course he was interested in it and pursued it straight away, but he pretended to Mycroft that he wasn't, for NO reason except to annoy his brother, which IS totally immature.

Mycroft treats him like a child and he acts like a child. Their dynamic is interesting.

Mary
 

I can't get enough of that dynamic. Mysterious. 

Hi, La Jolie.  

Yeah, it could have been because it was Mycroft. But, then again, he DID crack the case in TGG anyway. So even if he didn't want to admit to Mycroft that he had a point, he could have thought in over when he was alone. 

Sherlock has always been the type of person who wants his emotions validated and his needs met NOW. If he miserable, then so is everybody else. Emotionally, he is still like a child, and making him feel good is more important than anything else. He hasn't learned that other people's emotions are importnant too, sometimes more important than his. He always wants instant gratification (if he is bored, he will shoot up the wall or take drugs). 

I think this is what's behind his actions in TEH. He misses John and wants to see him NOW. When he fails miserably to interpret the situation, he tries to calm John by horrendously bad jokes. And STILL he is unable to grasp John's emotions, waving them away as overreaction and plunging straight into his "You've missed this"-speech. 

But he feels guilt over this, seeing John's reaction throughout the episode. I don't think that is an emotion Sherlock feels often, so it must very strange and uncomfortable. That feeling has to go! So he stages the tube-scene to again get his feelings validated. He needed to be forgiven and he needed it NOW. Because he didn't want that guilt-feeling anymore.

So, yes, I think he was the biggest arse to John that we've ever seen in this episode. (And makes up for all of it in TSoT, the entire episode is Sherlock putting John over his own feelings, it's heartwarming to see).

Yes, I think we get a more nuanced and better picture seeing those two episodes (and even TLV) together. Sherlock goes from being the biggest arse ever seen to the best best man you can be. I don't think folding seviettes was pathetic in the least, I found it heartwarming, bordering on moving.

Then again, I guess Sherlock is a bit of an "all or nothing"-person. So either he would ignore the wedding completely, or he will go all in. 

As for the reunion, I have to admit that I put the majority of the blame on Sherlock. John only loses it when Sherlock - again and again - crosses the line and shows that he understands nothing of what John is going through. I honestly believe the meeting would have been less violent if Sherlock had shown a bit more care and empathy for John's feelings.

Vhanja wrote:

Sherlock has always been the type of person who wants his emotions validated and his needs met NOW. If he miserable, then so is everybody else. Emotionally, he is still like a child, and making him feel good is more important than anything else. He hasn't learned that other people's emotions are importnant too, sometimes more important than his. He always wants instant gratification (if he is bored, he will shoot up the wall or take drugs). 

Sherlock is only childish in small, insignificant moments, mostly when he is at home and bored out of his wits and when his childishness doesn´t harm anybody. But when things get serious, he is able of incredible restraint, patience and self-sacrifice. He sacrifices everything for his friends exactly because he values them and wants to protect and to save them, even when it means hurting their feelings. I´m sure regarding both TRF and TEH that if Sherlock could spare the emotions of his friends being hurt, he would do it. But so many things were against him in those episodes that he just couldn´t ensure it.

To reproach him that he was childish when he gave up so much and was constantly engaged in a fight to finally win safety and normal lives for his friends in the long run is like reproaching a firefighter who just saved people from being burn to death that he has black sooth on his face. When we see Sherlock´s action throughout the series, this claim is simply ungrounded. Also, we saw Sherlock shooting the wall exactly one time and we saw him taking drugs only one time too in the entire series. Why do you think that one time = constantly?

Vhanja wrote:

But he feels guilt over this, seeing John's reaction throughout the episode. I don't think that is an emotion Sherlock feels often, so it must very strange and uncomfortable. That feeling has to go! So he stages the tube-scene to again get his feelings validated. He needed to be forgiven and he needed it NOW. Because he didn't want that guilt-feeling anymore.

He stages the tube scene because he wants to reconcile with John and to continue their friendship. There is nothing selfish in that. He already apologised twice in the episode, but the obstinate English bulldog John loves his recriminations and wounded pride more than he loves him. So when conventional methods did not bring the result Sherlock craved for, Sherlock tried unconventional method successfuly.

Also, John was insuferable in the tube. Sherlock was trying to do everything to save them from being blown up by the bomb and instead of having his support in that moment, he had to put up with imbecilic whining and ungrounded accussations (as if he himself set the bomb there). Maybe he scared John to punish his ungrateful friend a bit.

Vhanja wrote:

So, yes, I think he was the biggest arse to John that we've ever seen in this episode. (And makes up for all of it in TSoT, the entire episode is Sherlock putting John over his own feelings, it's heartwarming to see).

At the end of TEH (and in the rest of S3) it seems John was not worthy of Sherlock´s sacrifice. It´s significant he never said "thank you" for all those things Sherlock has done for him, althrough he was well aware of them and it was actually him who benefited from Sherlock actions the most.
 

You mean John didn´t actually want to forgive Sherlock? The forgiveness was forced on him?

Is he a masochist then? Tagging along an individual who hurt him terribly is his favourite pasttime? Or he just does it to get on Sherlock nerves during cases and thus avenging himself?