I think we view this differently, because I see Sherlock's arseholeness (great word, btw!) worse than John's. Because John is straight forward - you treat him like crap, he will punch you in the face for a very clear reason and then be done with it.

Sherlock, on the other hand, will go to any length to get his feelings validated. He is like a child when it comes to feelings, he hasn't matured enough to bother with empathy. Nothing, in his world, is more important than getting his feelings validated. So when he needed to hear an apology, that need was more important than John's trauma over thinking he is dying.

THAT, to me, is selfishness in it's purest form, and is in my opinion, worse than what John does. 

But I guess we are all coloured by our background. I have never been hit by anyone, but I have experienced (to a much lesser degree) that kind of selfishness,and I think I would take a punch in the face for being an arsehole any day over that.

Liberty wrote:

It's not as if Sherlock had done anything wrong - I think we're being told that hurting John was the fallout from something he HAD to do.   He acted as he did to save John's life and other people.  He gave up everything for two years and went through hell ... he's a hero. 

And John thinks that Sherlock went off on some big fun adventure and traumatized John for a laugh. John can't even conceive that Sherlock had a valid reason for faking his death. Until TEH, I thought that John saw something in Sherlock that no one else did, saw him as fully human and capable of emotion just like anyone else.

But after the TEH, I realised that John was friends with an idea of Sherlock, not the man himself, and that he had very strong opinions about who that idea of Sherlock was. When the ultimate test came for John to express just what he thinks of Sherlock, he failed badly. He thinks so little of Sherlock that it breaks my heart!

Until TEH, I didn't think much of Sherlock either, to be honest. But seeing him repeatedly kicked like a wounded puppy by John all through series three has me very sympathetic to him. I think the main reason that Sherlock seems so much more raw and emotional in series three is that he's so desperately seeking a foregiveness that he does not need and will never get. John broke Sherlock, not the two years away, not the torture.

(I also find the idea that the reunion scene, as per the commentary, is something to be laughed at absolutely repugnant.)

Mary

That's a terribly sad thought, Mary.  Two sad thoughts - that John loves a version of Sherlock that doesn't really exist, and that he broke Sherlock.  I don't know if I'd go that far, but I think you definitely have a point.  When Sherlock gets back from Serbia, he seems a little fragile but gets himself together OK and is enthusiastic about getting back to John and his old life.  After meeting up with John, there's something kind of more gentle and subdued about him, and what you're saying gives me a horrible feeling of him carrying wounds, and not just from the torture.     I do find it difficult that at the wedding, the only way he sees to big John up is to put himself down - and John plays along with that. 

But I do think it's significant that John chooses to trust Sherlock over Mary in HLV.  There is still that absolute faith there.   Although ... Sherlock sets that up so carefully, doesn't he?  Leaving the bottle of perfume out for John at 221B.  He lets John come to the obvious conclusion himself BEFORE telling him, I suppose.  It looks like he (Sherlock) doubts that John would believe him if he'd told him outright. 

We're not given the details of why John couldn't be told, but it seems that the three targets (John, LeStrade and Mrs Hudson) are being watched (and are still in danger).  They could only be told after the network was destroyed.  (In a way, I think it's not exactly a plot hole, but a little bit of a stretch, that only these three were watched, but nobody else - and it was fine for Sherlock's parents to not even attend the funeral.   But that seems to be what we're being told, and Sherlock is very careful to check and name the three targets on the roof top).   What is clear is that Sherlock very much wanted to get in touch but was unable to do so (presumably because it would put John at risk, but also reveal that he was alive and make him unable to destroy Moriarty's network).  John isn't the actor that Sherlock is and it's quite possible that he would have given something away (and it is vaguely amusing that he's shouting about it in the take-away, while Sherlock is trying to explain that it would have been difficult for him to keep it secret!).

There's no harm done to John on Sherlock's return, because the network is destroyed (presumably).  So it's safe to tell John, safe to reveal Sherlock is alive and Sherlock no longer has to be discredited. 

I don't think Sherlock had much choice - it would have been too much of a risk (to John, and to others, and to the whole operation) to tell him, I think.   What Sherlock has to do is awful for Sherlock too - worse, in some ways.  Disappearing and giving up his whole life, family, friends to be in danger and tortured, etc., for two years, and losing all respect to do so - to have that huge fall from grace.  And his reason for doing it isn't for glory (he gets the opposite of that - disgrace) or personal gain (he loses so much), but to save lives, John's and others, and make a better world. 

His motivations are very noble.  And he's so contrite when it dawns on him how much John has suffered.   So of course it's easy to excuse his behaviour.  I don't think Sherlock had much choice in TRF - he had to do what he had to do.   In the bomb scene in TEH, he did have more choice and what he does is awful, but it does turn out to be kind of right - John seems to be struggling himself with his inablity to forgive Sherlock.  

What he never does (I don't think) is hurt John because he wants to hurt him - it's always an unintended side effect.

 

As I mentioned before, I think they are both slightly emotional damaged or crippled, and they are experiencing extraordinary situasjons and circumstancnes. But there is no doubt in my mind that Sherlock regards his needs for emotional validation higher than whatever trauma that might cause John (i e, the tube scene). 

If anything, John could be less angry at the reunion and spare the headbutt for the tube scene, as that was, in my mind, the worst thing Sherlock has ever done. 

Then I guess we view this very differently.

Last edited by Vhanja (December 13, 2014 1:26 pm)

Y'all think so deeply. I just saw Mark and Steven trying to be funny. 

Schmiezi wrote:

Which scenes in S3 do you interpret Sherlock as broken?

To me, it's all summed up in one line, "He's YouTubing serviettes!"

Sherlock has never cared about stuff like that and now he feels he has to so that he can be forgiven for something that doesn't need forgiveness.

Do you think Mary added to the trauma by shooting him?

Not in the least, once he figured out why she did it.

And as a consequence, do you personally think Sherlock would be better off without them?

Nope. I think if anyone can heal the rift between Sherlock and John, it's Mary, provided she is indeed who and what I believe she is. We'll know in series 4.

And that's all I have to say about that because, like in the Mary thread, I just don't see the universe and human relations like most people.

Mary

Eveything Sherlock did was to protect others, he had to do what he did otherwise he would go around solving crimes when everyone was against him and no-one would believe him.
He only wanted to help others, I think John should have accepted that, although the scene where Sherlock and John were reunited was very well played  and it worked very well.

Last edited by chloejellybean5 (December 13, 2014 4:22 pm)

I didn't see him engaging in the wedding preparations to ask for forgiveness. I see him doing it for John, and because he likes Mary.

I am actually a bit surprised that so many are willing to excuse Sherlock's behaviour while at the same time strongly judging John for the same. Sherlock isn't any better just because he doesn't hit those around him. Mental manipulation and selfishness can hurt more than a slap in the face.