BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary's Death

silverblaze · November 22, 2014 11:27 am

And don't forget the best man's speech. I was convinced that they'd screw it up. Then Moffat happened.

SolarSystem · November 22, 2014 11:28 am

ancientsgate wrote:
It's intriguing to think about.... whatever the writers do, I imagine most of us will end up wanting to throw a shoe at the TV when we see it.

I wouldn't be surprised. There were several moments in S3 when I already felt the urge to throw a shoe. Then again, there were far more moments I thought were fantastic. I guess you need to have a bit of both in order to end up with a brilliant mix.

ancientsgate · November 22, 2014 11:46 am

besleybean wrote:
Judging by past experience,I will doubt very much if the team don't present me with the best TV I've ever seen.
I didn't want The Woman...they did it well.
I didn't want John to hit Sherlock...they did it well. I didn't want a stag night...they did it well.
I didn't want Mary at all...they did it well.
I certainly didn't want a wedding,..,.but they did it well.

Well, I'll go so far as to agree that they did it. Whether or not I'd call it "well"..... but then, that's why they're the writers, and I'm not. They made certain creative choices that I never would have, simply because I like to tell a story... just tell the damned thing, with a beginning, a middle and an end. But Sherlock's writers love to get cutesy and play games with their watchers (one example, and this is just one example, is the non-answer they gave us to how Sherlock survived TRF). And wasting valuable series time with that silly fannish stuff in HLV, which some found humorous but I felt... well, I felt as though someone had come up behind me and jabbed a big pin in my ribs. FCOL, we only have three 90-minute eps every THREE YEARS, and they had to waste many valuable minutes with poking fun at the fans? Ugh. So yeah, they did it. But well? Matter of opinion. I love this show, but I do have times when I'd like to throw my TV out the window into my yard.

And Mary and what they're going to do about/with her and the baby will just be more opportunity for us to be exposed to the writers "creativity".... love it or not!

ancientsgate · November 22, 2014 11:51 am

silverblaze wrote:
And don't forget the best man's speech. I was convinced that they'd screw it up. Then Moffat happened.

I loved parts of that, especially the johnlock hug (at long last!) But because of the bright lighting, the strange yellow room, Sherlock's verbal wanderings that included some self-critical statements that I thought didn't really jibe with who I think Sherlock is, the strange way the people at the tables sat and just mostly stared impassively, it had a dream-like quality to me that made it seem part fantasy. (sorry, this is hard for me to put into words) Again, creative decisions (not just the writing, but set decoration, lighting, etc) that I would not have made, but that's what makes it "art" I guess, right?

SolarSystem · November 22, 2014 12:05 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
besleybean wrote:
Judging by past experience,I will doubt very much if the team don't present me with the best TV I've ever seen.
I didn't want The Woman...they did it well.
I didn't want John to hit Sherlock...they did it well. I didn't want a stag night...they did it well.
I didn't want Mary at all...they did it well.
I certainly didn't want a wedding,..,.but they did it well.
Well, I'll go so far as to agree that they did it. Whether or not I'd call it "well"..... but then, that's why they're the writers, and I'm not. They made certain creative choices that I never would have, simply because I like to tell a story... just tell the damned thing, with a beginning, a middle and an end. But Sherlock's writers love to get cutesy and play games with their watchers (one example, and this is just one example, is the non-answer they gave us to how Sherlock survived TRF). And wasting valuable series time with that silly fannish stuff in HLV, which some found humorous but I felt... well, I felt as though someone had come up behind me and jabbed a big pin in my ribs. FCOL, we only have three 90-minute eps every THREE YEARS, and they had to waste many valuable minutes with poking fun at the fans? Ugh. So yeah, they did it. But well? Matter of opinion. I love this show, but I do have times when I'd like to throw my TV out the window into my yard.

And Mary and what they're going to do about/with her and the baby will just be more opportunity for us to be exposed to the writers "creativity".... love it or not!

I agree with a lot you are saying here. The fact of the matter indeed is that with this show we have a lot more hiatus than anything else. And in S3 there were several things I could have done without (Mary is one of those things, but that is my personal problem). But in general that's the nature of a tv show, I guess, the writers won't always give you what you want to see - and that's probably also a good thing, at least sometimes.
"Sherlock" still is one of the best tv shows I've ever seen, especially S1 and S2, and I'm sure it'll stay that way.

Liberty · November 22, 2014 3:54 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
And don't forget the best man's speech. I was convinced that they'd screw it up. Then Moffat happened.
I loved parts of that, especially the johnlock hug (at long last!) But because of the bright lighting, the strange yellow room, Sherlock's verbal wanderings that included some self-critical statements that I thought didn't really jibe with who I think Sherlock is, the strange way the people at the tables sat and just mostly stared impassively, it had a dream-like quality to me that made it seem part fantasy. (sorry, this is hard for me to put into words) Again, creative decisions (not just the writing, but set decoration, lighting, etc) that I would not have made, but that's what makes it "art" I guess, right?

Yes! There was something very odd about it. The self-criticism in particular, but the whole feel of thing. I think it looks beautiful (and very different from the other episodes), but as you say, it's dream-like and some of it doesn't seem true.

SusiGo · November 22, 2014 4:23 pm

We have a whole thread dedicated to the strangeness of the wedding. And I agree that it often has an unreal quality as if the characters we know move in a sort of vacuum, as if they were surrounded by extras to which they are completely unconnected. And I think this adds to the overall feeling of irreality that characterises the Watson marriage as a whole.
As for Sherlock - in this series we get more and more insights into his inner being and the way he really sees himself. It may be shocking for some but I really liked seeing those aspects of him and they logically lead up to the moments in HLV when he turns into his younger self culminating in the Appledore scene.
The writers have always stressed that he is a character in progress, that they start far earlier than most other adaptations. He is a man who must find his inner balance and the way is not easy.

maryagrawatson · November 22, 2014 4:46 pm

SusiGo wrote:
As for Sherlock - in this series we get more and more insights into his inner being and the way he really sees himself

Indeed. There is so much introspection on Sherlock's part in this series, showing how much he has matured. He truly sees himself as he is not the way he thinks he is. Just think back to when he was describing his bad habits to John in ASIP. He had no clue about what truly makes him an a***h***. He gets it now and because of that he's able to choose to rise above his bad traits and be a better person.

It's always been clear to me that Sherlock is insecure and has self-esteem issues, and this is brilliantly demonstrated with his younger self. Add in the knowledge that he was over indulged by his mum and I think that the inner workings of Sherlock's mind are pretty clear by the end of series three. I'm actually not surprised by anything and glad that a lot of my theories were confirmed.

Mary

Schmiezi · November 22, 2014 6:21 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
And I feel the need to rephrase my post (wrote it at 6 in the morning after a sleeples night). I hope that Mary's fate, whatever it might be, happens to her because John makes the decision that he no longer wants her around.
(And now I go back to my little Johnlock corner and ignore the rest of the world for a while.)
*speaks up from my own johnlock corner* Yeah, but the baby.... it complicates *everything*. I can see John telling Mary to take a hike (or taking a hike himself), but that baby! If in fact the baby is John's, I don't see him ever turning his back on it. Ever. Maybe the John character is (to me) someone who's been heavily influenced by what I've read in fan fic, but even just looking at BBC canon, I see John as a person of honor, and (my) John would want to do the right thing, which we all know is not always the easy thing.

I still say that whatever the writers do with Mary, they're going to have to tread carefully with the baby issue, because I don't think the Sherlock fandom is going to be happy if they don't. Love Mary or hate her, the baby is an innocent bystander.

*waves from one Johnlock corner to another*
I agree with you on the baby - but I am sure that they knew exactly how to deal with it when they wrote TSoT.

ancientsgate · November 22, 2014 6:42 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
*waves from one Johnlock corner to another*
I agree with you on the baby - but I am sure that they knew exactly how to deal with it when they wrote TSoT.

Perhaps. Have they said as much? From what little I've read, I always got the feeling that they make things up as they go along, pretty much. Maybe by now they DO know how they're going to handle the Mary-Baby dilemma, the corner they've painted themselves into, of course.

I'm intrigued by the idea of the upcoming 2015 Christmas special, how much Mary-Baby-John-Sherlock dynamic we'll see, how light the writers will keep it for the holidays, or how much dark they'll actually delve into. I'm actually more intrigued by the thought of the special than I am about S4.

besleybean · November 22, 2014 6:50 pm

I'm excited about both...depending on what happens in the special, I suppose.

ancientsgate · November 22, 2014 7:02 pm

besleybean wrote:
I'm excited about both...depending on what happens in the special, I suppose.

I hope I can keep my interest for as long as it takes. I will watch any new stuff that comes out, naturally, if I live long enough! But beyond that, with so darned much time in between seasons (what the Brits call series), I find it hard not to just wander off and get interested in some other fandom. This forum has been a key reason why I'm still intrigued about anything about BBC Sherlock, actually.

I still can't quite believe they'll kill Mary off anytime soon. Not as long as AA has anything to say about it. But who knows, maybe the actress wants to just be free of Mary so she can go do something else and get out from under the Sherlock fans' radar-- the fandom has dealt with her at times in a very intense way that she hasn't found pleasant. In time, the mystery of all that will be solved.

Last edited by ancientsgate (November 22, 2014 7:04 pm)

besleybean · November 22, 2014 7:10 pm

Certainly when the team talk about Amanda on the commentaries, they clearly all adore her...
Yet I still feel they will have a clear idea with where they want to go with the character, so I honestly don't think she'll have much say
Having said that,I feel they keep dragging Moriarty out because Andrew is so good, popular and they all like him(especially Mark, tee hee!).

silverblaze · November 23, 2014 2:00 pm

Nah, I don't believe they've written themselves into any corner. They've done this work for so long, they won't make rookie mistakes like that. And they won't let AA decide the fate of the character either (not that she seems to want that anyway). They kill off cool characters played by cool actors all the time in DW. (But Missy lives, no one believed that for a second ;)).

As for surrealism; the wedding isn't really the first time that the series is somehow surreal. It's always been like that.

besleybean · November 23, 2014 2:08 pm

The Wedding is perfectly real to me.
But..I'm beginning to think it maybe the baby that dies...(sob)

maryagrawatson · November 23, 2014 2:51 pm

besleybean wrote:
They keep dragging Moriarty out because Andrew is so good, popular and they all like him(especially Mark, tee hee!).

Much as I think Andrew is brill, I hope that they come out with the other ACD canon Moriarity played by someone else. Andrew looks exactly like this crazy (in a scary psychopathic) coworker I used to have and I just squirm when he's on screen because he plays psychopathy so well (it's the eyes, *shudders*). One of my Sherlockian friends also worked with that guy and is the one who clued in on why I have such a hard time watching Andrew as Moriarty. Again, I think he is absolutely brilliant, just too much so.

Mary

besleybean · November 23, 2014 4:18 pm

So am I understanding you right?
You're saying that because Andrew is so good at his job...he shouldn't continue?!
Anyhow, I don't know if he will...

maryagrawatson · November 23, 2014 4:37 pm

besleybean wrote:
So am I understanding you right?
You're saying that because Andrew is so good at his job...he shouldn't continue?!
Anyhow, I don't know if he will...

No. I'm saying that I would prefer he not continue because his performance traumatizes me.

Mary

ancientsgate · November 23, 2014 6:15 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Nah, I don't believe they've written themselves into any corner. They've done this work for so long, they won't make rookie mistakes like that. And they won't let AA decide the fate of the character either (not that she seems to want that anyway). They kill off cool characters played by cool actors all the time in DW. (But Missy lives, no one believed that for a second ;)).

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that the writers had written themselves into a rookie-mistake type of corner; I absolutely believe that by the time final script approval comes around, all their creative decisions have been well thought out. But be that as it may, Mary being pregnant *is* a plot corner.... they now must solve the conundrum of what to do with that child without alienating half of their female audience. I suppose they must have a good idea how they'll get themselves out of that corner, since they undoubtedly did the painting job in that way on purpose.

ancientsgate · November 23, 2014 6:19 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
Much as I think Andrew is brill, I hope that they come out with the other ACD canon Moriarity played by someone else. .......I think he is absolutely brilliant, just too much so.

We haven't been shown that Moriarty's alive. All they showed us is his face on every TV screen in the country, saying words we've already seen him say, after all. Could be someone in his evil posse using his image to get everyone's attention, and who will carry on his "work". Perhaps it will turn out to be Moriarty's twin brother, just back from Borneo or Timbuktu with a pure hatred for Sherlock. lolol