BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The special

Liberty · November 21, 2014 4:30 pm

Yes, I see what you mean about it being too much of the same thing. And (although he's not a woman ), Magnusson also fooled Sherlock in the same episode.

maryagrawatson · November 21, 2014 4:49 pm

Liberty wrote:
Yes, I see what you mean about it being too much of the same thing. And (although he's not a woman ), Magnusson also fooled Sherlock in the same episode.

By the time Sherlock really got on his investigation, at the restaurant meeting, he was so doped up I don't really count that as fooling him, actually. Sherlock just wasn't playing with a full deck and I think that if he had, Magnussen wouldn't have fooled him.

Great, now I have this theory that Mary and Magnussen were working together and the whole point of shooting Sherlock was to get him off his game to distract him from some bigger plot. Okay, time for the special. My theories are getting out of hand.

Mary

Liberty · November 21, 2014 5:07 pm

Oh, I don't just mean at the restaurant, but all the way through. Sherlock looks stunned when he realises there are no vaults. He really doesn't get it until exactly the point that Magnussen (I keep wanting to end his name "-son"!)) chooses to reveal it to him. Magnussen also manages to fool him with the letters. And arguably, Magnussen fools him about the pressure points (although I don't think he does - I think that although Sherlock uses the drugs story to draw him in, he MUST know that Magnussen won't fall for it as the main pressure point. Especially when he says "Redbeard" out loud!).

maryagrawatson · November 21, 2014 5:24 pm

Liberty wrote:
Oh, I don't just mean at the restaurant, but all the way through. Sherlock looks stunned when he realises there are no vaults.

You're right. I keep forget about that amazing scene where he realises that he's going to have to kill the smarmy b***.

He really doesn't get it until exactly the point that Magnussen (I keep wanting to end his name "-son"!))

You and me both! I regularly have to write cheques to a Mr. C. Magnuson, so I always have to remind myself on this forum that it's two Ss and an E!

chooses to reveal it to him. Magnussen also manages to fool him with the letters. And arguably, Magnussen fools him about the pressure points

That I'm not so sure about. It's kind of like TRF where it's hard to know how much Sherlock really knows and how much he is pretending not to know. I suspect that Magnussen really did beat him, but I prefer to think that Sherlock wasn't entirely out of his mind during HLV...

Mary

Lola Red · November 21, 2014 5:46 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
I would love for Janine to be the next great villain! How clever would you have to be to share Sherlock's bed (though apparently very little happened there) without him realizing what/who you are? Sounds like a criminal mastermind to me.
The problem I'm having with this theory is Mary. It might be a bit much to have both of the gals turn out to be the opposite of what they initially appear to be.

Mary really fooled Sherlock. I still find it chilling how he bought into her lies. We've seen Sherlock get caught off guard before, but nothing like in Magnussen's office where he can't even string two words together and starts stuttering!

Much as I love the idea of Janine being the other Moriarity, it would be treading into ridiculous territory for Sherlock to be blindsided like that again. Unless the two gals are working in concert and Mary is just a decoy to turn his attention away from what is really happening...

Mary

I see your point. However, I do not think he was completely fooled by Mary. He instantly deduces that she is a liar, he just chooses to not further investigate it. This realization might even be a greater shock to him: that he always knew she was not what she appeared to be and did nothing about it.
Also Sherlock has been completely fooled before - by Moriarty (Jim from IT?). So he is not unfaultable in his abilities. I agree that it would take a mastermind to keep that up for a longer time period, but that to me would make a villain that I would like to see; a true match for Sherlock.

Lola Red · November 21, 2014 6:05 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
Liberty wrote:
Oh, I don't just mean at the restaurant, but all the way through. Sherlock looks stunned when he realises there are no vaults.
You're right. I keep forget about that amazing scene where he realises that he's going to have to kill the smarmy b***.

chooses to reveal it to him. Magnussen also manages to fool him with the letters. And arguably, Magnussen fools him about the pressure points
That I'm not so sure about. It's kind of like TRF where it's hard to know how much Sherlock really knows and how much he is pretending not to know. I suspect that Magnussen really did beat him, but I prefer to think that Sherlock wasn't entirely out of his mind during HLV...

Mary

Hmm, I barley dare to answer, but I always had the feeling that Sherlock was not fooled by Magnussen, at least not completely. I tend to think that after the restaurant scene he figured out that Magnussen having a mind palace of his own was at least a possibility. That is why he asks John to bring is gun, that is why he makes sure it goes with them before they get on the helicopter. I believe that Sherlock hoped with all his heart that he was wrong, that he would get to play out another scenario. This is why he kind of spaces out after he sees that there are no vaults, because he knows it just came to the worst of all scenarios: that he would have to kill this man to protect John’s happiness. I think (look how I bring this back on topic) this dark side to his growing ability to care for other people would be very interesting to explore in the next season and the special.

PS If this was too dark for anyone I understand *still goes to hide under a rock just in case*

maryagrawatson · November 21, 2014 6:17 pm

Lola Red wrote:
Hmm, I barley dare to answer, but I always had the feeling that Sherlock was not fooled by Magnussen, at least not completely.

Yup. The fact that he asked John to bring the gun speaks volumes, making the murder premeditated. This was Sherlock's ace in the hole. If he couldn't beat Magnussen with his wits, then brute force would have to do it. I believe that Sherlock always knew that it could come down to this.

I continue to marvel at the parallels with TRF. In one, Sherlock is shocked by the villain shooting himself in the head, in the other he shocks the villain by shooting him in the head. Ultimately, it is Magnussen who has seriously underestimated Sherlock, not the other way around!

Mary

silverblaze · November 21, 2014 7:25 pm

Mmm, IMHO, you're thinking too deep. Moffat writes a screenplay like that in a month. That's very fast as far as I'm aware. Not much time for deep reasoning.

maryagrawatson · November 21, 2014 7:55 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Mmm, IMHO, you're thinking too deep. Moffat writes a screenplay like that in a month. That's very fast as far as I'm aware. Not much time for deep reasoning.

I don't know anything about you, but I get the impression that you might not be a writer. Writing is so much more than just getting the pixels on a page. There is so much cogitation going on behind the scenes. I've written a number of books and the actual desk time pounding out the manuscript is extremely short compared to the months of thought. Of course, everyone's writing style varies, but I can't believe that such high quality scripts can come out in that short an amount of time unless there was a lot of thought behind them before the writers even sat down.

Mary

Sherlock Holmes · November 21, 2014 8:38 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
I can't wait for highly ambiguous details to leak through when they are filming!

I can't wait for the highly ambiguous "explanation" we'll probably get in the actual episode.

Sherlock Holmes · November 21, 2014 8:41 pm

Lola Red wrote:
I would love for Janine to be the next great villain! How clever would you have to be to share Sherlock's bed (though apparently very little happened there) without him realizing what/who you are? Sounds like a criminal mastermind to me. Though I hope that if she comes back as a villain, it is for more than just the special. But then the special might just be setting up the stage...

I have written this elsewhere, but I think it would still be a nice nod to the cannon if Mary would be written out (in which from whatsoever) during this special (in-between seasons as opposed to in-between stories). Amanda said in an interview that she knows how Mary is going to leave, so it is likely in the near future (though season 5 is apparently already plotted, I tend to think it is going to be earlier than that, but I could be wrong of course). Maybe Moriarty (or whoever is behind that gif) is responsible for her, ehm, removal?

I'd actually really like that too. And we know that Moffat is into female villains at the moment (DW).

silverblaze · November 21, 2014 9:33 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
Mmm, IMHO, you're thinking too deep. Moffat writes a screenplay like that in a month. That's very fast as far as I'm aware. Not much time for deep reasoning.
I don't know anything about you, but I get the impression that you might not be a writer. Writing is so much more than just getting the pixels on a page. There is so much cogitation going on behind the scenes. I've written a number of books and the actual desk time pounding out the manuscript is extremely short compared to the months of thought. Of course, everyone's writing style varies, but I can't believe that such high quality scripts can come out in that short an amount of time unless there was a lot of thought behind them before the writers even sat down.

Mary

You write novels, how cool. So, just out of curiosity, how long does a novel take for you? How much planning and how much actual writing?
I agree that they probably spend a long time planning, several drafts and some passing back and forth of scripts. Still, the four months amaze me, isn't that really fast? And they said that they plotted the main shape of series four and five one afternoon on a bus. Maybe they were bluffing a bit, maybe it was a very, very general outline, but still, I've got the impression that they are very efficient, I mean, screenwriters are efficient if you compare them with novelists, especially tv writers. Do you really think they explore all those possibilities?

besleybean · November 21, 2014 9:35 pm

They discuss a lot on the commentary...on the obvious about Sherlock...but also about Mary, a great deal.

maryagrawatson · November 21, 2014 9:58 pm

silverblaze wrote:
You write novels, how cool.

Nope, never said that. I do write fiction for pleasure, but all my published stuff is non-fiction and related to the niche that I blog in. I've sold over a thousand copies of one book that involved a year of research and outlining, then the actual writing, from first to final polished draft, took me less than a month.

I mean, screenwriters are efficient if you compare them with novelists, especially tv writers. Do you really think they explore all those possibilities?

The thing to remember with Moftiss is that they are huge fans of ACD canon and have been since they were boys. They know it inside and out. I've read or heard in interviews more than once how they were glad to finally slip such and such a bit into their universe or fix something they felt ACD got wrong. So our show has been cogitating in their brains for a very, very long time. I bet that actually getting something on paper is a huge relief.

All that said, I have no idea just how deeply the creative process goes. I think series 4 will be very telling. If, as I suspect, a major reveal of a conspiracy going all the way back to series one happens, then we'll know that they do put a lot of thought into the scripts. If there is no such relevalation, we'll know that they just like to write shocking material with little depth to it. I can't wait to find out which!

Mary

besleybean · November 21, 2014 10:04 pm

Wow, that sounds a tad harsh!
We're all dying to see the next part of the story..
But I lay down no constraints on the writers' vision.

maryagrawatson · November 21, 2014 10:42 pm

I don't see what's harsh about that. I just don't want to believe that TRF is just what it is, a confusing non-sensical emotional manipulating mess. I think it shows that I have great faith and love and respect for Moftiss that I keep giving them another chance to make that ep right for me.

Mary

besleybean · November 21, 2014 11:01 pm

Fair enough.
I loved the episode and accept the 3rd explantion of the survivial, though I wasn't terriibly interested in it.
But we have moved on so far from that point and the future looks bright.

Sherlock Holmes · November 21, 2014 11:02 pm

Honestly, they're not going to go back on any of the old episodes now. That's just not the way the series works. It's about moving forwards, new stories, new adventures, not having to go and explain all the old ones. Some things are best left to the imagination, some things are best left unexplained. It's actually BAD writing, if you have to explain literally everything - it's expositional.

Just throwing my two cents in here, I'm a professional writer myself (as in I get paid for it), and I normally write a novel in three months. That's from beginning to end with no pre-planning before hand. Everything in three months. So yes, it can be done. A friend and I plotted out an entire trilogy of feature films in quite a lot of detail on a four hour car journey so I can completely understand Moffat and Gatiss plotting for Sherlock on the train to Cardiff. Different people just write in different ways.

silverblaze · November 21, 2014 11:11 pm

maryagrawatson wrote:
I've sold over a thousand copies of one book that involved a year of research and outlining, then the actual writing, from first to final polished draft, took me less than a month.

Wow, I'm still impressed. I'm pretty sure I can't write a book in a month. Even with all the research.

maryagrawatson wrote:
All that said, I have no idea just how deeply the creative process goes. I think series 4 will be very telling. If, as I suspect, a major reveal of a conspiracy going all the way back to series one happens, then we'll know that they do put a lot of thought into the scripts. If there is no such relevalation, we'll know that they just like to write shocking material with little depth to it. I can't wait to find out which!

Mmm, I actually suspect it's the latter one, which I would still like, btw. If there is such a conspiracy, it's probably partly reverse engineered because they really didn't know that there would be a series four when they were writing series one. They never made such big conspiracies before on this series and there are plenty of villains left in the canon. I, for one, can't wait to see baron Gruner. But, we're all just guessing here, who knows, your version seems like a lot of fun too. (But then Moriarty should die, I mean, honestly.)

@Besley, I still need to get the commentaries, I'm really curious what they have to say. And I actually still love TRF, cliffhanger of the century.

besleybean · November 21, 2014 11:14 pm

It is a good episode and fine that you enjoy it...
But I prefer His Last Vow
It has so many more questions to be answered.