BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

mrshouse · November 13, 2014 7:53 am

Well, nothing new here: that's Sherlock and Janine playing games with each other and John - as I have already shown- forcing a feeble and not genuine smile compared with the smiles he can show.
So?

SusiGo · November 13, 2014 7:58 am

Just a little aside - here are two Moffat/Gatiss quotes from "Sherlock Chronicles":

"They're chalk and cheese but they adore each other."

“The two most opposite people who could ever possibly meet each other, who really adore each other and end up sharing a flat …"

If I am not mistaken "adore" is quite a strong verb to describe the feelings between two people.

Last edited by SusiGo (November 13, 2014 7:59 am)

Liberty · November 13, 2014 8:07 am

I don't think it's that strong a word to use about Sherlock and John. I think most people involved acknowledge how special their relationship is.

@ Mrshouse, it's not new, just a picture of John's expression that I think captures it quite well. If you forget what he's looking at and just looked at the picture, the smile (to me) is the kind of smile you might have if you were thinking "I don't believe it!". He also looks a little amused in this one. It doesn't look like a forced smile (and nobody is looking at him at that point, so no need to force it), more a "what on earth?" sort of smile. If he'd just looked shocked and surprised without smiling the scene would definitely have seemed more negative (which is what I suspect might have happened in the first take).

mrshouse · November 13, 2014 8:16 am

Liberty, there's no need to be looked at to show a forced smile, and apart from that it's a close up for the whole world of fans to watch.
I don't know what it would need to show that this is quite clearly not amusement he shows here? Dragging Janine out of the flat grabbing her flowery dress?? Wrestling and pulling her hair? Not too subtle IMHO.
And as I have mentioned look at Johns body language all puffing his chest out and truly smiling when Janine leaves the flat.

SolarSystem · November 13, 2014 8:45 am

I suppose this is one of those occasions where I just go "either you see it or you don't" - and 'it', so it seems, can be various things here. Although for me it clearly is only one thing. But there you go... either you see it or you don't.

Last edited by SolarSystem (November 13, 2014 8:46 am)

Lilith · November 13, 2014 3:10 pm

SusiGo wrote:
If I am not mistaken "adore" is quite a strong verb to describe the feelings between two people.

I just got a text from my closest soulsister and she used exactly that word telling me she adores me. We have a very strong, very special friendship. So it is not that unusual to use that word in a friendship.

tonnaree · November 13, 2014 3:57 pm

Lilith wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
If I am not mistaken "adore" is quite a strong verb to describe the feelings between two people.

I just got a text from my closest soulsister and she used exactly that word telling me she adores me. We have a very strong, very special friendship. So it is not that unusual to use that word in a friendship.

I hear LIttle Charles in my head saying "I adore you." *thud*

Liberty · November 13, 2014 6:23 pm

@ Solar, yes, I think you're right!

@ Mrshouse, he wouldn't have needed to assault Janine. I just mean if you imagine the scene with him surprised but not smiling it would come across as negative (which might suggest things like bitterness, jealousy, even anger, etc.). That may have been what happened on the first take. The smiling makes a difference, I think. I know it doesn't look like a smile of pure happiness, but I think it's because he's seeing something unbelievable - it's a quizzical "Are you kidding me?" sort of smile, I think. I don't think it's bad acting, maybe just ambiguous acting!

nakahara · November 13, 2014 10:07 pm

Liberty · November 13, 2014 10:32 pm

^^^ Ha ha!

nakahara · November 21, 2014 8:19 am

I really love the conclusion to this article:

http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2013-09-30/9-reasons-why-sherlock-would-make-a-terrible-boyfriend

SusiGo · November 21, 2014 8:23 am

Yes, just yes. Can I say again how much I love those promo photos?

Liberty · November 21, 2014 9:16 am

I know it's a funny article, but I wonder if he really would make a terrible boyfriend (for John or for anyone)? On the evidence we have, he would, but we're seeing a Sherlock who is deliberately avoiding romantic love. If he did make the decision to go for it (and I do kind of like the idea of him doing that when he retires and no longer needs to keep his mind so sharp for his work) then we'd see a completely unknown side of him. I'm sure he wouldn't be the ideal boyfriend that the Radio Times is humorously envisaging, but I don't think he'd end up with the typical partner either.

My main issue with him as a romantic partner hasn't been any of those things (what does it matter if he guesses what a birthday present is?), but his lack of communication in S2 (with John in particular, who is the person closest to him).

SusiGo · November 21, 2014 9:33 am

I am sure he would be able to have a loving relationship if he allowed himself to do so. After all there is nothing he does not do for John, including risking his own life and freedom. He would not be the typical boyfriend but this would be boring anyway.

And we see him on a learning curve with regard to opening up about his feelings. In series 2 he is still suppressing his feelings but the moment in the graveyard in HoB is a first step. By series 3 he is already able to talk about loving John in front of a whole wedding party.

Liberty · November 21, 2014 11:01 am

Yes, he clearly has the capacity for it, but chooses not to go there. And even opening up about feelings isn't that important for the majority of the time. (Does it really matter too much what the wedding guests think?). It's fine for things to be accepted and go unsaid in some relationships, or just be alluded to, as long as there's a basic understanding. I suppose S3 shows that it's not that Sherlock can't say things, but that he doesn't want to or doesn't feel it's necessary for most of the time. I was more concerned in S2 about him keeping just about everything else from John - what he was doing, why, etc. They are supposed to be not just close friends and flatmates, but working together, and yet as a colleague, John tended to get left completely out of the loop and then used when necessary. I don't think that's due to lack of caring or respect on Sherlock's part and I think they're both aware that John is OK with it, but it's behaviour that might be a bit borderline if Sherlock was a boyfriend. That's what I'd pick up on as a possible fault, rather than the things the article mentioned.

SusiGo · November 21, 2014 11:25 am

But I think this is something he has to learn as well. In series 2 he deliberately kept John in the dark (which is in many ways Canon). In series 3, however, things are different. He has changed and continues to do so which is something some viewers did not like at all. They wanted to have their good old coldhearted non-feeling sociopath and got - this version of Sherlock. Which I think is proof that he has changed indeed.

And another thing - being flatmates is quite different from being in a mutually acknowledged loving relationship. And although they are not in such a relationship almost everything Sherlock does in TSoT and HLV is an act of selfless love.

lil · November 21, 2014 11:48 am

Amusing article ! TY for link@Naka.

With this article in the BBC radio times and the BBC three tweets it looks a bit like the johnlock cat is out of the bag @theBBC .

Last edited by lil (November 21, 2014 11:50 am)

SusiGo · November 21, 2014 11:51 am

It was not my link but nakahara's.
And I agree with you - something seems to have changed. And the promo shots have always been quite conspicuous.

Last edited by SusiGo (November 21, 2014 11:52 am)

tonnaree · November 21, 2014 1:48 pm

BBC3 is my new hero. They are having so much fun with this.

Liberty · November 21, 2014 4:25 pm

SusiGo wrote:
But I think this is something he has to learn as well. In series 2 he deliberately kept John in the dark (which is in many ways Canon). In series 3, however, things are different. He has changed and continues to do so which is something some viewers did not like at all. They wanted to have their good old coldhearted non-feeling sociopath and got - this version of Sherlock. Which I think is proof that he has changed indeed.

And another thing - being flatmates is quite different from being in a mutually acknowledged loving relationship. And although they are not in such a relationship almost everything Sherlock does in TSoT and HLV is an act of selfless love.

Oh, I agree, but they're not just flatmates in S1 and S2, and it's about all we have to go on for looking for clues to what Sherlock would be like in as a boyfriend (as John is the primary relationship in his life, and he loves him). I don't think he's shown as a cold-hearted, non-feeling sociopath in S2 either - anything but!

Yes, he's more forthcoming in S3, but still not completely - he could have told John the truth about Janine from the beginning, and although he doesn't keep John in the dark for long (because they go to the office later that same day) there's really no need for it (unlike in TRF, when there was need for it).

Anyway, I'm a bit OT, sorry, as all this applies regardless of Johnlock, but I just wanted to comment on the perception that Sherlock would necessarily be rubbish as a boyfriend!