BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

BrettHolmes · November 9, 2014 5:33 pm

The Reichenbach Fall is certainly a brilliant and intense episode when you first see no doubt. What it did was definitely great television. However, I do really wonder if it does holds up on multiple viewings after one watches The Empty Hearse because it undermined much of what we saw in it and its emotional impact. So far I have seen TRF only two times but had always been blown away by it. Now having seen TEH, I will certainly look at it in a different way next time I watch it.

In the final explanation in TEH, we learn Sherlock and Mycroft were ahead of Moriarty the whole time, so thus Moriarty was never an actual threat. Nor were Sherlock’s friends ever in real danger since Mycroft was able to easily call off the snipers. Also, by letting the plot to destroy his reputation go through, it means that all the emotion that Sherlock showed in TRF was not real. His tears in the climax had to have been false since we now know that John was the only one who was being deceived when he staged the fall.

So do you think TRF still holds up in light of the fallout of TEH?

Last edited by BrettHolmes (November 9, 2014 10:20 pm)

maryagrawatson · November 9, 2014 5:54 pm

I though TRF fall was bad before TEH. Now, I think it's horrible!

What we needed in TEH was some confirmation of what was real and what was fake in TRF, especially in terms of whether Sherlock and Mycroft were a step ahead of Moriarty or if Moriarty did beat Sherlock. All TEH does is make the lines between reality and subterfuge in TRF even more blurry.

I rewatched TRF after TEH even though I swore I never would and I came out of that viewing even more frustrated with the episode than I was the first time I saw it!

Mary

Harriet · November 9, 2014 6:22 pm

I think in TEH Sherlock didn't tell or perhaps didn't know the truth that Moriarty was ahead of him instead. And that Sherlock indeed got surprised about what happened on the rooftop and his emotions were mostly genuine.

SusiGo · November 9, 2014 6:33 pm

I agree, Harriet. I really do not think that Sherlock knew what Moriarty was going to do on the roof. The way Benedict plays is - even when Moriarty cannot see his face - proves this IMO.

And in case someone has read the deleted scenes from the Chronicles - in the pool scene Moriarty originally talked about "the final problem" = staying alive, long before visiting Sherlock in Baker Street. So I suppose it was a long-time plan of his and I am sure we will get more information about this in the next episodes. As we must because they will have to deliver an explanation for Moriarty's return - if and how he survived or who used him to get Sherlock back.

Zatoichi · November 9, 2014 6:51 pm

I wouldn´t say TEH ruined TRF for me.. I just can´t get them together somehow. I take what I see in TRF at face value, and none of the explanations given in TEH changes any of the feelings I have for it.. it´s completely disconnected for me. Maybe it changes in S4, when we get more information about the whole thing.

In a way I stopped taking the show serious after TRF.. Everything that comes next feels just like goofing around. It was entertaining, but it didn´t have any emotional impact (except for Sherlock´s near-death.. but as it turned out to be just a happy little accident made by a loving friend I´ll probably get over it someday, too). Up until the end of TRF the show feels like a good wine that is to be slowly discovered and savoured in all its nuances, afterwards it´s more like a big dose of sherbet powder.. fizzy, surprising, and somewhere between really good and really awful ^^. (No offense to anyone who loves it, just my personal feelings.) It feels like the show I fell for so hard stopped after S2, but luckily nothing I see in S3 changes the way I feel for things happening in S1 and S2.

SolarSystem · November 9, 2014 7:24 pm

Maybe I am exceptionally shallow, but all I can say is that I've watched TRF two or three times since S3 aired and it still makes me cry every time I see it. Maybe I'm able to blank TEH out almost completely when I watch TRF, because I admit that TEH isn't one of my favorite episodes and even after several viewings I'm not really satisfied with the 'explanation' we got and how some of the things were handled with regard to TRF.
Still, it doesn't ruin TRF for me at all. I suppose TRF is just too powerful an episode in itself.

SusiGo · November 9, 2014 7:27 pm

I agree. TRF has some of the most harrowing and beautiful scenes and nothing can take that away. And I still believe as I always did that Sherlock's note to John is genuine.

Sherlock Holmes · November 9, 2014 9:12 pm

I have to admit, that TEH has SLIGHTLY ruined TRF for me, yeah. Mainly the rooftop scene, when I watch it I always think about the TEH explanation and get really annoyed. The rest of the episode hasn't been ruined. It's still my favourite ep of the entire show and is an absolute perfect piece of television, IMO.

Liberty · November 9, 2014 9:19 pm

It doesn't ruin it for me, but it maybe trivialises it a little, and still leaves a lot unexplained.

BrettHolmes · November 10, 2014 12:26 am

Having now finished watching it just a while ago, I agree with a lot of these comments. I still find it to be a masterpiece along with ASIB. Pretty much everything in the script completely falls into place. The experience is still powerful as it is full of poignant, surreal, and harrowing scenes. I also feel that the general theme of celebrity where “everyone quickly turns against you” is what helps drive it. Watching I was able to see it as something in of itself and on its own. So TEH still doesn’t affect my view it but I had to see it again to make sure that it didn’t.

Last edited by BrettHolmes (November 10, 2014 12:28 am)

tonnaree · November 10, 2014 2:53 am

I like both episodes. I knew that TEH was going to divide the fandom. My own opinion is that we spent too much time trying to figure out the how when the why was the most important thing. (copyright @johnwatson)

I kind of thing TPTB did a smart thing. They gave us bits and pieces of an answer but knew that anything they presented as "this is how he did it" was not going to satisfy the audiance. Even the explination he gave Anderson isn't the whole truth. I don't think Sherlock has told anyone the whole truth except John. And although I was dissapointed at first that this didn't happen on screen I'm ok with it now.

The only thing that could hurt my feelings about TRF is is Moriarty is really still alive. If he is that would invalidate so much of the emotional impact of the rooftop scene.

SolarSystem · November 10, 2014 8:25 am

tonnaree wrote:
The only thing that could hurt my feelings about TRF is is Moriarty is really still alive. If he is that would invalidate so much of the emotional impact of the rooftop scene.

That is a very good point. I love Jim very, very much, Andrew did such a wonderful job with that role. But I don't think I want him back. Of course there always is the possibility that Mofftiss would pull this off quite convincingly... but I do have my doubts.

Neferu · November 10, 2014 9:22 am

I´m sure I don´t want Moriarty back. In my eyes he is nothing but a child in puberty, just playing around because of boredom and without an intention.
I hope for an opponent with charisma and belief in something the world will change in a good or bad way.

SolarSystem · November 10, 2014 9:48 am

In my opinion Moriarty did have charisma. Lots. You can have charisma even if you're bored.

Neferu · November 10, 2014 10:27 am

SolarSystem wrote:
You can have charisma even if you're bored.

Of course you can, no doubt about that.

SolarSystem wrote:
In my opinion Moriarty did have charisma. Lots.

No suprise when I see your statement abouve how you love Jim/Andrew.
So we see him in a opposed way, I don´t like the charakter and how he is played, but tastes are different, it´s okay.

Sherlock Holmes · November 10, 2014 11:20 am

I think Moriarty was a great villian. The thing that was so frightening about him was the fact that he literally had no motive to do any of these things, other than for his own amusement. He was basically a pure psychopath. I'm not a fan of those type of villians who have some kind of background sob story to make them seem more human.

lil · November 10, 2014 1:51 pm

I still think TRF is probably the best episode. The only people that have a problem with it are those that need an explanation of -how SH faked it - which was never the point or necessary to know in regards to the episode..and the ongoing story.
The writers have said various things about the Anderson explanation in TEH..its A explanation for those that need one...not necessarily THE explanation....and its the only one we are gonna get...I never expected one and certaintly don't believe the lol Anderson version..I actually thought a lot of the point was it remained unexplained.
The comments are still in keeping with...believe what you like as to the how...it's not going to be relevant...the why is more important.

@Moriarty was pure unpredictable chaos and a perfect villain for Sherlock...he really made criminality and death his art... .

maryagrawatson · November 10, 2014 2:54 pm

lil wrote:
I still think TRF is probably the best episode. The only people that have a problem with it are those that need an explanation of -how SH faked it -

That's not my issue with it. My issue is that the episode is one big emotional manipulation and I have no idea what I should and shouldn't be feeling because I have no idea what's really going on. Moffat confirmed that Sherlock's tears on the roof are fake and a show put on for John.

So that helps a bit in that it tells me that Sherlock was not emotional on the roof. If he wasn't emotional, then everything else, including his 'shock' at Moriarty's death, could also be a show. That tells me that he was likely in control of everything and indeed at least a step ahead of Moriarty, as he claimed to be in TEH.

However, there are lots of clues in the episode that he was well behind Moriarity and frazzled. There's a brief scene in the lab where he appears distressed, with bags under his eyes and red rimmed eyes, which point to a man at the end of his rope, not a detective in the throes of of a thrilling case.

So the episode's a giant mess for me.

Mary

besleybean · November 10, 2014 4:48 pm

No, TEH doesn't ruin TRF for me at all.
I see therm as 2 distinct entities.
TRF was my fave episode...and remained so until HLV came along.
But I still liked TEH.
It took me a few watches to get into and it's taken until watching the extras on the special DVD set, to really make peace with it.
But I was dreading the Reunion, because I knew John would hit Sherlock.
Yet it was done very well and so I enjoyed it.

Last edited by besleybean (November 10, 2014 6:03 pm)

Liberty · November 10, 2014 5:58 pm

The writers seem to confirm that the final fall explanation is the correct one (I do have a small issue with it, though).

About how far ahead of behind Sherlock is - I've watched a few times and it's difficult to tell, but I think some of his demeanour is explained if you think that fairly early on he realised he was going to have to disappear undercover and keep it secret. When that point is, I'm not sure, but it could have been very early on. I think he was planning to get Moriarty's network (rather than just Moriarty) right from the beginning. He's working closer and closer to leaving what he loves behind throughout the episode. I think that when Molly says he looks sad (and is keeping that from John) he must be on the way to developing the plan. He already knows what he's going to lose and is already having to hide it from John.