BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Harriet · November 9, 2014 4:17 pm

Susi: You are not??? I think neither am I
- but I do love dancing and complex stories

Last edited by Harriet (November 9, 2014 4:18 pm)

Harriet · November 9, 2014 4:20 pm

Now I'm really disappointed - BBC3 is not serious, and, worse, a sinking ship.
Well, speaking of ship of fools, sometimes fools are telling the truth

besleybean · November 9, 2014 4:37 pm

We'll see.

SolarSystem · November 9, 2014 4:53 pm

Oh god yes.

nakahara · November 9, 2014 7:39 pm

Liberty wrote:
This one scene, though, I think the alternatives they give (jealousy or being pleased for Sherlock) are pretty incompatible, and the commentary is clear about which they are showing.

Sigh.
I will probably repeat myself, but here we go:
If the authors wanted, they could make the scene unambigous, so that it would be clear that John is happy. There were plenty of cinematic, acting and storytelling techniques that would make it possible. They didn´t and left the scene open to many interpetations. So they probably wanted to achieve that effect.
They are insulting their own art if they issue "a manual to comprehend the scene" later and demand that the spectators should see what they "prescribed" them.
They are practically telling us: "Hello, we are lousy storytellers, not confident enough to belive that you will see what we intended you to see, because we can´t write believable scenes anyway. So here is our manual, where we will explain what you should percieve here-and-here-and-here....."
And sorry, but they indeed are lousy, if that scene should show John happiness.
It´s badly timed - it comes right after John is insulted that his chair has disappeared and that he is being replaced in Sherlock´s life. To suddenly have a 180-degree turn and go all "lalala" over Sherlock´s new girlfriend goes against John´s as well as common human psychology and it shatters the gradation of the situation as it was slowly built to this very moment.
Also, it contradict the idea that John knows Sherlock best of all his friends. John knows quite well that "girlfriends are not Sherlock´s area". It´s unbelievable that he is not at all suspicious that Sherlock is pulling his leg again, but that he is "happy".
And Martin Freeman probably was not informed what they are filming at that moment, because he gives us a sense of tension and distress, rather than happiness in this scene. Which would never happen if he knew he should act as a happy man - he is a brilliant actor.
The fact that the first take of the scene allegedly showed jealousy is very telling too. How could this happen if the actors had instructions that they are filming a happy scene?

I could continue, but it´s pointless, IMHO. It would be just arguing for the sense of arguing.

SusiGo · November 9, 2014 7:42 pm

I agree with everything you said.
Let me just add a little detail - Martin as JOhn has a gesture he always employs when being nervous or tense, i.e. flexing his hand(s). It is in the tarmac scene, it is everywhere when he is not feeling at ease for some reason. And it is in this scene as well.

besleybean · November 9, 2014 7:43 pm

So he's anxious about Sherlock and Janine?

SusiGo · November 9, 2014 7:47 pm

At least he is not at ease in this situation which means to me he is not happy. Making the same gesture as when he says goodbye to Sherlock on the tarmac does not excactly speak of happiness.

nakahara · November 9, 2014 7:51 pm

besleybean wrote:
So he's anxious about Sherlock and Janine?

He could be unhappy that Sherlock replaced him with another person!
Does it really matter if man or a woman?

lil · November 9, 2014 7:57 pm

Amusing to think MF had the script...thought it through over weeks...then came in and acted it 'jealous'. So much so...they went uh Martin lets go again only less jealous thanks! How much more could the first take have been and how did MF get it so wrong..........?

At the bbc3 tweets...very funny weren't they...wonder why bbc1 made the....some quiet would be good @bbc3 .

The commentary is quite amusing but we really don't get much from their head cannon overall. .except some lols and the never ending ambiguity.

SusiGo · November 9, 2014 8:03 pm

Great point about MF, lil.

Liberty · November 9, 2014 8:07 pm

Oh, I agree that he's not at ease - he's kind of perched on his seat there, quite stiff (he does have quite a stiff posture as John anyway, but he's obviously not relaxed here). But I never did see distress. I got a sense of him feeling displaced, which was maybe to do with him sitting like that in what used to his home, being in a very unfamiliar situation in a familiar place ... but of course, he's still kind of happy about being "recruited" by Sherlock again. That was what he wanted in his heart. I do see him being incredulous - wondering if it's really happening, and keeping getting Sherlock to confirm it. But I definitely also see smiling - it can fit perfectly well with what was intended. Maybe they should have put it into words "I'm pleased for you". Or maybe that would have seemed ambiguous too! They didn't say why it looked like jealousy in the first cut - not necessarily Martin's acting, but could have been the way it cut between them or whatever? I don't know. Or maybe he didn't smile, but just looked stunned? It's hard to say without seeing it.

Anyway, I think it's worth listening the commentary as well as reading if you get the chance. It doesn't come across in a didactic way, like a manual; "You must see it this way". It's almost a throwaway comment about redoing the scene.

Last edited by Liberty (November 9, 2014 8:10 pm)

besleybean · November 9, 2014 8:14 pm

They seem to find it quite amusing!

nakahara · November 9, 2014 8:18 pm

Liberty wrote:
Anyway, I think it's worth listening the commentary as well as reading if you get the chance. It doesn't come across in a didactic way, like a manual; "You must see it this way". It's almost a throwaway comment about redoing the scene.

Oh, I understand that.
I just hate to be beaten over the head with the words "but the commentary said" again and again.
One can enjoy Mona Lisa without the lengthy explanation from Leonardo Da Vinci about the meaning of her mysterious smile.
The scene in HLV - like all art - should stand for itself even if you never read or heard a word from Moftiss concerning it.

besleybean · November 9, 2014 8:26 pm

Though we do know the identity of the Mona Lisa and why she was painted.

Liberty · November 9, 2014 8:27 pm

I do agree, Nakahara (even though I really like the insights in the commentary, etc.). I think it's just so easy for it to end up being ambiguous - I've even watched a scene on different days and seen it in different ways. What we see feels like it's not very concrete sometimes.

I know I'm going to struggle with Mary shooting Sherlock for a while - and for similar reasons. I keep thinking "If you really wanted to show THAT then why did you give us THIS?".

Last edited by Liberty (November 9, 2014 8:27 pm)

besleybean · November 9, 2014 8:34 pm

But doesn't it make it a bit more interesting that Mary can be forgiven, even after committing almost the worst crime she could?

Last edited by besleybean (November 9, 2014 8:34 pm)

Zatoichi · November 9, 2014 8:36 pm

I´ll put my answer in the Mary-thread!

Liberty · November 11, 2014 9:24 pm

“We didn’t know if he was gay or not until the [first] series had actually finished, did we?” Gatiss muses. “We kind of had to… work it out. It wasn’t obvious.”

I mentioned this a while back, but couldn't remember where I'd seen it. It's from this article from just before the second series started.

Liberty · November 13, 2014 7:33 am

I'm rather late with this, but there was a request for screenshots of John's expression in the Janine scene. If you scroll down to the bottom of this article there's a little bit about the scene and it shows John's expression (it describes the scene as "hilarious and touching", so yet another take on it! It looks like everybody saw something slightly different).