BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » One more miracle

tobeornot221b · July 16, 2012 5:29 pm

Maybe Sherlock knew that he was placed under surveillance, that he could be listened to by Moriarty's people.
Yes, Sherlock wanted to fake his death - otherwise there would have been enough possibilities to warn Mrs Hudson, Lestrade and John after Moriarty's death by making three simple phone calls: "Seek refuge - sniper's aiming at you!"
But no - faking his death apparently has to serve a greater purpose than just to save his friends.
Sherlock knew that John wouldn't believe his lie:.
"Nobody could be that clever."
"You could."
or:
"I know you're for real."
"A hundred percent?"
"Nobody could fake being such an annoying dick all the time."

I don't think that Sherlock - being absolutely sure of John's loyalty was worrying about his future forgiveness by then.

ancientsgate · July 16, 2012 6:54 pm

Arya wrote:
My question is, why was Sherlock telling John those lies about him being a fake? Did he seriously think that John would believe him? I mean, if Sherlock was about to fake his death and planned to eventually reunite with John, telling John he was a fake wouldn't exactly help John forgive him. So what was the point?

He needed John to believe he was well and truly dead. He knew John would sniff him out like a dog on the trail of a rabbit if he had any doubt. John had to see the fall, had to know the reasons why the fall was necessary, had to buy it 100%, especially in the critical day or two that followed. He didn't want John barging into emergency and demanding to see, feel, hear his Sherlock, in order to confirm or deny what he'd just seen. He needed to "get it", right out there on the street. Sherlock needed the papers to blare DETECTIVE SUICIDE on their front pages, for everyone to nod their heads and chat around the office water cooler about how they always knew that Sherlock Holmes dude was some kind of nut. He needed to be D-E-A-D, so Moriarty's dogs would be well and truly called off.

As for their upcoming reunion, well, sentiment is not Sherlock's strong suit. Oh, you were upset? Ever so sorry. Did what I had to do, you know. Moriarty gave me no choice. If I didn't "die", you and Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade would have. Ever so sorry. Sherlock's plan necessitated lying, "dying", and going underground for a while, and he would have no qualms about handling the fallout from any of that later. As always, John will deal-- he always does, doesn't he? Good ol' John.

Arya · July 16, 2012 11:53 pm

But how would that help John believe Sherlock's suicide? If he knew it wasn't true, then why would he think that Sherlock commited suicide over it? My assumption is that John thought Sherlock commited suicide because he didn't want to spend his life on the run or in jail (Moriarty probably could have gotten Sherlock convicted of that murder if he was still alive, and John didn't know Moriarty was dead).
I get that he wanted the world to think he commited suicide because everyone found out he was a 'fake,' but John wouldn't believe that.
True, I guess John will just have to deal with it like he always does

ancientsgate · July 17, 2012 12:39 am

Arya wrote:
But how would that help John believe Sherlock's suicide? If he knew it wasn't true, then why would he think that Sherlock committed suicide over it? My assumption is that John thought Sherlock committed suicide because he didn't want to spend his life on the run or in jail (Moriarty probably could have gotten Sherlock convicted of that murder if he was still alive, and John didn't know Moriarty was dead).
I get that he wanted the world to think he committed suicide because everyone found out he was a 'fake,' but John wouldn't believe that. True, I guess John will just have to deal with it like he always does

What's that phrase the courts use? Reasonable doubt. John had seen a whole lotta weird and wonderful and terrifying and maddening things in his months following Sherlock around-- the man had astounded him over and over again in the past. So no, I think especially once the shock wore off, and John had had a bit of time to cry and think, he'd surely come to doubt the lies that Sherlock had told him on the roof's edge that day. But by then, there'd be a shiny black tombstone in that old, moldering cemetery, and then there'd be nothing John could do but inexplicably stand there and ask Sherlock for one more miracle, just for him, to not be dead and to just stop it now, for cryin' out loud. But in the moment, back there in the street, a picture is worth a thousand words--- John would eventually wonder about all the lies he'd just been told, but.... the fall, the blood, the staring lifeless eyes-- maybe Sherlock had lied and maybe he hadn't, but... he was gone.

kazza474 · July 17, 2012 4:37 am

Arya wrote:
My question is, why was Sherlock telling John those lies about him being a fake? Did he seriously think that John would believe him? I mean, if Sherlock was about to fake his death and planned to eventually reunite with John, telling John he was a fake wouldn't exactly help John forgive him. So what was the point?

Sherlock had to fall completely. he had fallen in the eyes of the public, he had fallen in the eyes of the law. The one part of him that had not 'fallen' at that stage was the part that included John. John believed in Sherlock.
Now this would never do if Sherlock was going to convince everyone that he was dead. He HAD to have John believe that everything about him was fake so he could 'fall' in the eyes of John.
Once he had fallen from grace as far as he could go his death would be easier to accept. And he needed his death to be accepted by everyone.
Future plans for a reunion would not have entered the equation.

Why would John believe what Sherlock was saying?
How many times did Sherlock do what John thought was not possible? Many. So while everyone is hanging onto the thought that 'John believed in Sherlock' explicitly, that is an erroneous statement.
What John REALLY believed was that Sherlock was capable of almost anything, the 'impossible' if you will. Being a fake, being what Moriarty said about him, was therefore a possibility. And if it is possible, Sherlock could do it.

ancientsgate · July 17, 2012 5:56 am

kazza474 wrote:
..... So while everyone is hanging onto the thought that 'John believed in Sherlock' explicitly, that is an erroneous statement. What John REALLY believed was that Sherlock was capable of almost anything, the 'impossible' if you will. Being a fake, being what Moriarty said about him, was therefore a possibility. And if it is possible, Sherlock could do it.

But John, looking out the window at 221B, told Sherlock that Moriarty hadn't succeeded in making him doubt him, "No, you're for real," to which Sherlock replied, "100%," and then John made the observation that no one could fake being such a dick all the time. So which is it? Did John lie when he said he thought Sherlock was for real? Did he lie on the phone at St. Bart's when he told Sherlock that yes, he believed that Sherlock could indeed be "that clever"? I don't believe it's erroneous to go on thinking that John believed in Sherlock. My God, he stood at the grave and talked to him as though he could hear, asking him to please not be dead and to stop that phony being dead thing.

Like me, I suspect that John is also not smart enough for the Sherlock room. He cares, he feels responsible, he's thrown his lot in with Sherlock and his "causes", he's willing to be nanny, helpmate, scolding parent, friend, scheduler and gofer, whatever Sherlock needs. But I think at least so far in the series, John's still genuinely puzzled about what makes Sherlock tick-- as he said, "Sometimes I didn't even believe you were human, but you were the best human being...." Anyway, I wonder if John is as much at a loss to figure Sherlock out as we are at times. But I absolutely believe that he never doubted Sherlock's abilities and his particular brand of Sherlock-sincerity.

kazza474 · July 17, 2012 7:26 am

ancientsgate wrote:
But John, looking out the window at 221B, told Sherlock that Moriarty hadn't succeeded in making him doubt him, "No, you're for real," to which Sherlock replied, "100%," and then John made the observation that no one could fake being such a dick all the time. So which is it? Did John lie when he said he thought Sherlock was for real? Did he lie on the phone at St. Bart's when he told Sherlock that yes, he believed that Sherlock could indeed be "that clever"? I don't believe it's erroneous to go on thinking that John believed in Sherlock. My God, he stood at the grave and talked to him as though he could hear, asking him to please not be dead and to stop that phony being dead thing.

Like me, I suspect that John is also not smart enough for the Sherlock room. He cares, he feels responsible, he's thrown his lot in with Sherlock and his "causes", he's willing to be nanny, helpmate, scolding parent, friend, scheduler and gofer, whatever Sherlock needs. But I think at least so far in the series, John's still genuinely puzzled about what makes Sherlock tick-- as he said, "Sometimes I didn't even believe you were human, but you were the best human being...." Anyway, I wonder if John is as much at a loss to figure Sherlock out as we are at times. But I absolutely believe that he never doubted Sherlock's abilities and his particular brand of Sherlock-sincerity.

You've missed my whole point. This goes 2 steps backwards from where the conversation was pointed "WHY did Sherlock tell the lies" etc but I will take it back to understanding what I said before I move on again.
He believes Sherlock exists. He believes Sherlock is doing the right things for the right reasons.
But he doesn't believe Sherlock is always right, should be believed at all costs.
He believes in Sherlock's abilities & reasons.
These are the things he's said in the statements you have posted. "for real" & "100%" "being that clever" - he believes in Sherlock's existence & in Sherlock's motives.

People "believe in" God's and sports teams and actors etc etc. They believe whatever they do is right/correct.

John does not believe "in Sherlock" but he "believes Sherlock". They are 2 different things really.

Sumac60 · July 18, 2012 1:37 am

I'm not sure who said what at this point, but could Sherlock have actually been recording his call of the "letter" admitting that he was a fake? Can you do that? He threw it away before he jumped...which is kind of what you'd do with an ordinary suicide letter, too. Whoever said that Holmes has to guarantee that everyone knew without a shadow of a doubt that he was really, truly, dead and discredited...I agree.

Anyway, another red herring maybe, but what is that hospital that is undergoing renovation that you see in the newspaper Holmes holds up to his face (in a really dumb way...I couldn't figure it out) in SiB? Can someone who spotted for the HD version tell us?

And back to whether or not he could have survived...I'm not 100% on this...I just know that weird things happen. I think if he has played a trick it sure as hell better be a clever one or his fans will be pretty angry...(of course we know it will be mind blowing)

Also, I'm not comfortable posting such things on an anonomous board like this because I don't want to encourage the idea that you can survive such things...in the vast majority of cases you're DOA. But check out this article, for examples at the end:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10820107

Really scary, and I won't bring it up again.

ancientsgate · July 18, 2012 1:53 am

Sumac60 wrote:
Anyway, another red herring maybe, but what is that hospital that is undergoing renovation that you see in the newspaper Holmes holds up to his face (in a really dumb way...I couldn't figure it out) in SiB? Can someone who spotted for the HD version tell us?

I've been listening to the Belgravia DVD commentary today. Gatiss says there was a possibility they couldn't use St.Bart's because it would be covered with scaffolding for renovation. Luckily, that didn't happen and didn't interfere with the filming of TRF. I gathered the newspaper headline had something to do with that-- like an inside joke?

If I understood them right, some of the filming for all three eps in each season is done concurrently-- it's not a matter of filming #1, wrapping that and only then going on to #2, etc. Sometimes they're filming all over the place, more than one ep at a time. So it's very possible that this Belgravia scene and the planning for TRF were going on at the same time.

He held it over his face to keep John from staring at him and continuing to ask him questions he didn't want to answer about the orgasmic text signal. John's answering smirk says a lot-- like, okay, I'll drop it for now.

sherlockskitty · July 22, 2012 2:51 am

Ok I've read most of the posts here but not all of them. I have to say Sherlock saved John from being a nobody; no depression, no loneliness, etc. John was unhappy about living in that one room by himself; Sherlock offered him a way out of that. They just seemed to hit it off right away. I think a miracle was that Sherlock knew more about John than even HE knew about himself.

ancientsgate---I wondered about that hospital headline, too. I think that newspaper was printed for the show. It said "REFIT FOR HISTORICAL HOSPITAL" but I don't think it was talking about St Bart's. Plus, they filmed TRF before they filmed SIB That much I know.

Last edited by sherlockskitty (July 22, 2012 2:58 am)

kazza474 · July 22, 2012 3:16 am

Oh it WAS about St Bart's. The picture is clearly the hospital and they mention in the commentary that they were going to use it later on for something , they mentioned scaffolding etc and then chuckled and said they didn't.

It was in the Scandal commentary:

"Benedict: “Oh, look: ‘Refit for Historical Hospital’ [as a headline in the newspaper which Sherlock is reading]. Hmm!"
(He and the writers snigger.)
Mark: “Some scaffolding that never happened!"
Benedict: “Can we talk about that? Turn off your commentary guide now if you haven’t yet seen episode 3, but if you have ..."
Mark: “The climax of episode 3 is on the top of Bart’s Hospital and [the newspaper headline] was a sort of seeding for the idea that there was some building work going on, which actually didn’t happen."

besleybean · October 6, 2012 8:36 pm

Well Sherlock's gonna give John his miracle, so he damn well better appreciate it.

sherlockian111 · January 24, 2013 1:54 am

Arya wrote:
My question is, why was Sherlock telling John those lies about him being a fake? Did he seriously think that John would believe him? I mean, if Sherlock was about to fake his death and planned to eventually reunite with John, telling John he was a fake wouldn't exactly help John forgive him. So what was the point?

I'm just gonna take a guess and say that Sherlock said that so John would be angry at him, and not completely devastated (well, that plan worked well! not). But I agree tho, as if John would actually believe it.
Anyway, John probably would've been even more upset if Sherlock had said , "I need to die in order to save you", so instead Sherlock told John the story that the newspapers (fairytales) told. But agree, it's a bit weird

sherlockian111 · January 24, 2013 2:08 am

besleybean wrote:
Well Sherlock's gonna give John his miracle, so he damn well better appreciate it.

Oh, he will definitely appreciate it, but he'll still be a bit angry with Sherlock

SherlocklivesinOH · January 31, 2014 12:20 am

besleybean wrote:
Well Sherlock's gonna give John his miracle, so he damn well better appreciate it.

This was kind of my reaction when I saw how angry John was in The Empty Hearse. Thank you for wording it so well!

I wonder if when he stalks off, he ever really intends to be "done" with Sherlock, or at what point he decides to go back?

As for the "miracle" comment...I too found the use of "one more" very telling...to me it suggested that John considers many things Sherlock has done to be miracles. And he doesn't ask a Higher Power for the miracle of Sherlock being alive...he asks Sherlock himself for the miracle.

But curing John's limp is definitely one that stands out for me, because I noticed the religous symbolism (and started a whole different thread on that.) Saving Irene was kind of miraculous, too (but John may not know about that.)

Re: "Don't be dead," I'm sure it must have at least OCCURRED to John at some point that Sherlock could be faking...or perhaps could be capable of a "resurrection" in a more truly miraculous sense.

After watching the flashback (real or not) in TEH, I realized that "It's a trick. It's all magic trick," was code for, "I'm not really going to commit suicide, I'm just going to do a magic trick."

And, Sherlock being Sherlock, it is POSSIBLE that he rationalized that by saying that phrase, he HAD told John that truth. But that doesn't get him off the hook, because he knows John isn't the deducer that he is; he should have realized John wouldn't get it.

Actually, I think Sherlock's pulling off the faked death was a bit of a miracle! He could have been injured jumping into the air bag...someone could have seen him hit the air bag...many things could have gone wrong.

This fanfic was written before the BBC series existed. It is based on canon, but it explores the idea of Watson coping by "pretending" that Holmes is coming back: http://moustache-wax.livejournal.com/7396.html

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 2, 2014 2:28 am)