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September 15, 2014 9:53 am  #61

Re: Poor Janine

I had another thought about Janine and Sherlock - that when they meet it's established that he's not up for sex or a relationship.  Janine jokes about it.  He helps her to find somebody more available.  At the end, even after he's thrown her the bouquet, Janine goes off with the available guy, because she knows there's no point with Sherlock. (Although the bouquet throwing does make me wonder if Sherlock was already working on Janine to get to Magnusson).

I think she dates him because she's genuinely attracted to him and because there's something in it for her (I think it's useful for Magnusson - he uses her to plant information and no doubt, to find out information about Sherlock, and there's the option of selling the story).   But I think she knows all along that it's not going to be that kind of relationship.  Maybe she's right that they could have been friends.  If he'd been upfront with her from the beginning, they could have worked together instead of trying to keep up the charade. 

As it is, she's stuck in the middle of Magnusson using her to give Sherlock the wrong information about his whereabouts, and Sherlock using her to let Magnusson think he has a drug problem.  And Sherlock using her again - did he ever, really, really think she would believe that proposal?  It's one of those moments when Sherlock doesn't quite seem to be in possession of his usual faculties.   Magnusson wanted him in the office, Sherlock wanted to be there, Janine's role was to facilitate it - between them, they'd have found a way to make it happen .  But Sherlock chose to use the implausible proposal.

I suppose that as well as referencing the ACD story, it's a nice follow-up to the bouquet-throwing - the tradition is that the person who catches it is the next to have a proposal.    Which again makes me wonder if Sherlock was setting that up in TSOT. 


September 15, 2014 7:19 pm  #62

Re: Poor Janine

I'm completely convinced that the bouquet-throwing thing in TSOT was a very deliberate set-up, a typical Sherlocky piece of manipulation and nothing else. What else would it have been? A sincere token of affection? Perish the thought. Just silly goofing around, not to be taken seriously? Not really likely with Sherlock either. Everything nice that he told her that night and did for her that night was part of that overall plan. "Confiding" in her about his dancing skills, even hooking her up so "nobly" and "selflessly" with the Sci-Fi guy - all designed to make her feel special and to make her believe she was the one woman for whom he would go out of his way, if you ask me.

The proposal had to be there because it is in ACD. It is unlikely if you think about it calmly and rationally, but maybe that would be expecting too much of Janine. Heck, if I was dating Sherlock Holmes and he'd propose to me even after just 4 weeks, I'd probably WANT to believe it with all my heart, too.

I don't believe that when she started dating Sherlock she was already thinking of selling the story in case the relationship didn't work out well. I think if Sherlock had been sincere and it just hadn't worked out between them for one of the myriad of possible ordinary reasons, she'd have left it at that. She only sells the story (or rather a bunch of lies about it) when she discovers that he's been using her from the start.

And to ask her to work together with Sherlock and against her employer would have meant asking too much of her, too. I thought it was actually quite decent of Sherlock not to do that. To try and get her onto his side would have meant her risking her job, not to mention what else Magnussen, that sick psycho, might have done to her in revenge if he'd found out. The way Sherlock orchestrated it, she was nothing but a victim, but that fact protected her against Magnussen's revenge, or was at least supposed to do that.

Is Sherlock really using her to "promote" the junkie story? Does she know? I get the impression that she doesn't. If she knew it and if she believed it, wouldn't she (being in love with him) have been really worried, tried to talk him out of it, tried to stop him?

Last edited by La Jolie (September 15, 2014 7:21 pm)

Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.


September 15, 2014 7:52 pm  #63

Re: Poor Janine

I'm not sure about him using Janine to promote the junkie story, but ... assuming Magnusson might ask Janine about Sherlock, it would be important that she didn't discredit the story by saying that he was OK.  The whole thing about her staying at his flat while he's out getting "high" is odd, if he doesn't need to "show" her that he's got a drug problem.

The suggestion that they could have been friends was Janine's and I took it mean that they could have worked together for mutual benefit.   Sherlock would probably have been happy for her to sell the story for an entry into Magnusson's office, for instance.   (Or perhaps, Sherlock could have offered to get Janine's "file", if she thought there was such a thing).  They could still have done the proposal scenario, but for Magnusson's benefit.   You're right that it would put her more at risk, but I thought she was saying that she would have preferred it.

She seems clever, and I think she knows what he's doing, but pretends to believe the lies - and probably hopes that there's some truth in them.  The lack of sex (if the "just once" means that) should have been a big clue - slightly honourable on his part that he didn't go that far in trying to convince her, but I liked that she would have preferred to have the chance to use him and at least get something out of it! 


September 21, 2014 1:57 pm  #64

Re: Poor Janine

There's now something else that's telling me that Janine never really fell for the proposal, but let Sherlock in because it was part of Magnusson’s plan.  I now think that she has to have known the proposal was fake, because of her conversation at the bedside.  If we assume she fell for it, then think about what she would know.  She let Sherlock in to propose, but was knocked out by an unknown assailant.  She was unconscious by the time Sherlock arrives.  I presume she and the guard were also taken to hospital.  At some point after she regains consciousness, she would find out that Sherlock has been shot, presumably by the same assailant.  

What would tell her that he lied to her?   Nothing.   When she last spoke to him he was proposing, but was interrupted because both of them were attacked.   Nobody was going to tell her that Sherlock was really there for Smallwood’s papers, were they?  Janine would still have thought that she was the reason he was in Magnusson’s office.  (Please tell me if I’m missing something here!).   If she believed in the proposal and wanted it, there's no way she'd have jeopardised that by publishing the story before she'd even had a chance to let Sherlock continue with the proposal.

So Janine must have known.  She tells him off for lying (how does him being shot mean he was lying?  She must have already known) and says she wishes they could have been friends.  She then tells him that she'll give his love to John and Mary. 

Contrary to his image, Sherlock likes having friends.  One thing that struck me about the wedding was that John’s closest friends are actually closer to Sherlock than him.  And his friends are quite an asset.  He’s surrounded by people who will go to great lengths to support and protect him.   It might have been nice to have another intelligent, amiable friend. 

I don’t know how much Janine knows about Mary, but it seems she thinks that Mary is a true friend  (or do you think that if she'd sussed out Sherlock, she would also have sussed out Mary?  I'm not sure - there's less reason for her to pick up on Mary.  And if she HAD known who Mary was, I'd have expected Mary to at least be threatening her).  By then, Sherlock will have guessed that Mary was using Janine in the same way he was.  Sherlock is letting Janine down again by not telling her about Mary.   It’s maybe not as bad a deception as the proposal, and it’s not his fault, but it’s similar - Janine is being allowed to believe that somebody has feelings for her, when those feelings are an act.  I think there is a moment when this crosses Sherlock's mind, before the mention of Mary reminds him that he needs to do something about her.


Last edited by Liberty (September 21, 2014 2:19 pm)


September 21, 2014 2:02 pm  #65

Re: Poor Janine

I have always maintained that Sherlock does have a slight regret about Janine...which of course would make it all the more intersting if it transpires she was actually playing him!


September 21, 2014 5:21 pm  #66

Re: Poor Janine

The way I read it, Janine is indeed a victim, in that she truly didn't suspect Sherlock not being serious about the relationship. And how did she find out? Magnussen told her, of course, after she came to. He told her that Sherlock had got into his office and that he was there on behalf of Lady Smallwood (and not in the name of love). There's no mystery there for me.

Janine's comment about giving Sherlock's love to John and Mary is a bit odd, I agree. Maybe it was just meant as a parting shot, trying to make Sherlock feel that he'd betrayed John and Mary as well by betraying their friend (Janine). It is interesting though because it seems to indicate that while Janine has, by then, found out the truth about Sherlock, she hasn't yet found out the truth about Mary (and the fact that Mary was using her, too). Does she ever?

It's just weird that she drops out of the story like that. While I personally don't believe that there is more to it (like Janine being the next big villain or some such theory), I do see why some people feel that there must be!

Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.


September 22, 2014 9:17 am  #67

Re: Poor Janine

Why would Magnusson tell her, though?    Why would he need her to know that he was blackmailing Lady Smallwood?   He doesn't have to tell her anything, beyond that Sherlock interrupted the unknown assailant and was shot.  He might have wanted to spare her the humiliation of continuing to pursue the proposal, but I actually think he might enjoy keeping her in the dark.

Of course, I do have another scenario in my mind where Janine is more Magnusson's accomplice and she has been used to manipulate Sherlock.  In that case, Magnusson tells Janine to tell Sherlock that he has a meeting, he tells Janine to let Sherlock into the office when he arrives, etc.   I think that's more likely, but it also means that Janine knows Sherlock is using her from the start and is playing along.  She doesn't need to be told about Sherlock's betrayal, because she knew all along.  At the hospital her part of the job is finished (she let him in as planned, and now she has sold her story and escaped) and she can talk openly about it.   Even in that scenario, Magnusson doesn't have to tell her anything (like who Sherlock is working for/who Magnusson is blackmailing). 

I don't know if Janine ever finds out about Mary, and wouldn't it be dangerous for her if she did?  She'd be a risk to Mary, and she's already shown what she'll do for financial gain (it was rather a Magnusson to do, selling those fake stories.  I think Janine had good reason to do it, but it would show Mary that she would cross boundaries).    Would Mary be happy allowing Janine to keep her secret?  I have a feeling that she wouldn't be. 

What bothers me, is that friendship must have been really awkward afterwards.   Things must have been frosty between Mary and John since the shooting, and Janine must have wondered why.   John is so terrible about keeping secrets (Martin shows so much in his face!), which I suspect is one reason Mary didn't want him to know (not just because he might leave).  Meanwhile John knows about Janine and the fake proposal, but Mary (so far) didn't know about the relationship between Sherlock and Janine.  I would love for the dinner party that never was to be a deleted scene and we could see the bride, groom, best man and bridesmaid having a little reunion after the wedding, now that their relationships are all secrets and lies!   Would love to have seen the interaction between them! 


September 22, 2014 3:56 pm  #68

Re: Poor Janine

But there wasn't time for that to happen...Sherlock was shot the night of the dinner being mentioned....


September 22, 2014 4:24 pm  #69

Re: Poor Janine

Oh, I mean after the shooting - that would be much more interesting!   I don't think it did or would actually happen (John looks incredulous at the idea, even before all the truths come out), but theoretically (and in my imagination only) it was a possibility - if everybody was acting like they were "normal" people it wouldn't be at all odd for John and Mary to have Sherlock and Janine round. 

Can you imagine?  John and Sherlock know Mary's an assassin but Janine doesn't.  John and Janine know Sherlock and Janine were in a relationship and Sherlock tricked her but Mary doesn't.  Janine, John and Mary know Mary was using Janine to get to Magnusson, but Janine (possibly) doesn't.  Janine knows Sherlock has a client who wants something from Magnusson, but she doesn't know the client is Mary.  John, Sherlock and Mary know that Mary knocked Janine out, but Janine thinks an unknown assailant attacked her and Sherlock.  And so on.  You've got to admit it could be fun! 


September 22, 2014 4:45 pm  #70

Re: Poor Janine

Oh sorry, you were just fantasising...if everything didn't happen as it did?
Cos Janine dumped Sherlock and he would have dumped her!
I'm not good with What ifs, I only really deal with what did happen


September 22, 2014 4:57 pm  #71

Re: Poor Janine

If it did happen as it did!  That's what makes it funny in my mind, all those secrets and coverups and nobody being quite sure what anyone else is guessing, especially so soon after the wedding when the relationships were quite different.  It wouldn't need to be a dinner party - I only mentioned that because Janine did.   In my mind, Mary might not know about Sherlock and Janine dating, never mind splitting up (only John knows before the shooting, and why would Janine or John tell Mary afterwards?).

I know it would have interrupted the flow of the story and been unnecessary, but the relationships between the four of them are fascinating at that point, and I love the idea of them just meeting up as a couple and their two best friends, but with all this stuff in the background.  Especially as I think Sherlock is also trying to deceive Mary (and John).

Last edited by Liberty (September 22, 2014 5:04 pm)


November 3, 2014 8:52 am  #72

Re: Poor Janine

There's quite a lot in the commentary about Janine.  They mention a couple of times that Sherlock genuinely liked her (well, why wouldn't he?), and I get the impression that they're hinting that he's NOT setting her up at the wedding - that that's just genuine interaction that we're seeing between them.   But I'll listen again to be sure, because there's quite a lot that they leave ambiguous or open-ended in the commentary (what a surprise!). 

But this bit (from the scene where Janine visits Sherlock in hospital) is very interesting;

(Apologies for any transcription errors)

Steven:  This was an interesting scene, because I mean I knew that ... one thing I thought, she had to kick back at him. I didn't want her to be just the sorrowing woman.  In the original, do you remember, at the end of the scene we had her leaving and they almost make up.  She sort of says, look, we're obviously not getting married, but if no-one wants us at the age of 60 shall we just get together?  And that sort of ties in with the idea of the cottage that he's going to one day live in.  

Mark: Well, she says she's bought a cottage on the Sussex Downs with the money. And he says "Keep the beehives".  But it was too ...

Steven: It got off the hook.  I didn't like the idea that he'd got off the hook.  He should be made to suffer.  Because, I mean, she takes the sort of comedy revenge of the newspapers, which I think he probably quite admires.  Finds it faintly embarrassing but admires that she was clever.  But the fact that she just skewers him with "you lied and lied, and we could have been friends" and that seems to me quite ..

Mark: No, it's good because it has consequences.  It means he's not going to just get away with it.  

Steven: And he does actually like her.  But the fact is, he's capable of doing this kind of thing to people he likes.  And she's kind, decent and clever.  And look how he screwed up.  He could just have asked her to help him.   But a really lovely performance, I think.   

And as we know, she'll be back.  Everybody is!  

I have to admit that I was gobsmacked by the idea that they'd originally planned for Janine and Sherlock to talk about living together in the cottage in old age!  And that they'd cut it solely because they felt Sherlock had to have more punishment over his deception of Janine!  I'd wondered about her getting rid of the beehives - it almost felt like a veiled threat (as we assumed that eventually Sherlock would go off and keep bees in a similar cottage).   In fact, it looks like it was just left in and was originally a cue for Sherlock to ask Janine to keep them ... for him. 

It also confirms for us that Sherlock could have had Janine as a friend and accomplice - he could have just asked.  Instead he chose to go down this particularly Sherlockian and cruel route of deception.   (And with John too, he chooses to deceive him.  It's only when John sees the proposal that he realises Sherlock is lying.   To him as well as Janine.  Obviously that doesn't cause the pain for John that it does for Janine, but it's telling that Sherlock chooses that route with both of them when it's completely unnecessary in both cases). 

It also confirms that he admires her selling the stories ("we're good" ), and possibly that he has regrets over how he handled it ("she skewers him" "he screwed up") - probably nothing really new there, but the beehives were a big surprise!

The line about Janine coming back is said jokingly, but it won't be a surprise to see her in S4!


November 3, 2014 9:12 am  #73

Re: Poor Janine

All this of course only works if Janine is who she seems to be - the nice, clever and badly used PA of a bad man. 
If not, this is again Mark and Steven giving us the runaround. 

"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)


November 3, 2014 10:01 am  #74

Re: Poor Janine

Well, yes - there's still room for this being about Sherlock's point of view ("he screwed up").   Janine could have other plans in S4.  I think they talk about how likeable she is, but they say that about Mary too (who IS likeable until HLV). 

There was a bit more that I didn't put in, because I felt something similar had been said before - (paraphrasing) that if they'd stayed friends, Sherlock would still have gone out with her now and then, but would probably let her down in some way on the "date" - or she would let him down! 


November 3, 2014 10:06 am  #75

Re: Poor Janine

I was talking about Janine in S3, not in the future, meaning that we do not know much about her and that it is an enormous coincidence that she is friends with Mary AND works for Magnussen. That after all she might not be on the side of the angels. That she knew Sherlock was interested in Magnussen's whereabouts that evening and that she told him Magnussen would be out. And that she is friends with Mary and suddenly Mary pops up in the office that very evening when Sherlock is there as well. Balance of probability, if you ask me. 


"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)


November 3, 2014 10:21 am  #76

Re: Poor Janine

I'm really glad that they didn't go anywhere else with that whole cottage thing. In my opinion it would have come out of absolutely nowhere if Sherlock and Janine had earnestly agreed on living there eventually. Even if there had been a real reconciliation, I wouldn't have believed this for a second.

"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"


November 3, 2014 10:24 am  #77

Re: Poor Janine

And if we really want to go there we could say that getting rid of the beehives equals a no to a future together in that cottage because the beehives would have been the biggest attraction for Sherlock. 

"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)


November 3, 2014 11:07 am  #78

Re: Poor Janine

Well, no future now, because he screwed up.  But it's interesting to know the potential was there if he hadn't, and why the writers didn't allow him that.    I don't imagine it would have been a serious plan - more like banter (a continuation of what we actually see), rather than earnest - and a nod to canon.  But Sherlock self-sabotaged ... for no good reason.  Steven seems to feel quite strongly about that whole incident (deceiving Janine - in the books as well).  I can see that he wanted to give Janine revenge, and also why he then decided not to allow Sherlock "off the hook".   But I'm not sure he gives a good enough reason for Sherlock doing it other than Sherlock being Sherlock (thinking of it as a case to be solved, rather than looking for a collaborater).   Perhaps Sherlock in the books wouldn't have been so likely to collaborate in that way.   But Sherlock on TV could have done, and chose not to, even if it meant hurting Janine unnecessarily (and himself to some extent).  

I agree that it's unlikely to be coincidence that Janine works for Magnusson and is best friends with Mary.  The commentary is a bit vague.  There seemed to be a hint that TSOT and HLV weren't fully connected - that they were conceived separately and decisions were made about HLV because of what happened in TSOT sometimes, rather than the other way around  - but that was just a feeling I got, and I don't think it can be true anyway.   Anyway, it's acknowledged in HLV that both Sherlock and Mary were using Janine to get to Magnusson.  And personally, I feel that Magnusson had given Janine instructions to let Sherlock in (after all, he'd lured him there with the "letters".  He wanted him to get in.   The puzzle is why Mary arrived at the same time ... again, Janine was her information source, so it would make sense that Janine fed Mary the opposite information.   But there seems to have been no "official" contact between Janine and Mary recently (am I right?  Janine seems to imply that she hasn't seen John or Mary since the wedding?), so if they've met up, then they're colluding and keeping it secret.

In which case, Mary did collaborate with Janine rather than just using her.  So no wonder she suggests that Sherlock could have done the same thing. 

I'm not sure about that though - it doesn't quite ring true. 

Last edited by Liberty (November 3, 2014 11:15 am)


November 3, 2014 11:47 am  #79

Re: Poor Janine

Yes, when talking to John Janine implies that they have not seen each other since the wedding. However, if she was in cahoots with Mary she would not tell John about it so this is no proof. 

"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)


November 3, 2014 1:16 pm  #80

Re: Poor Janine

besleybean wrote:

Actually, while I'm here:
can I say something else which really bugs me?
I just feel Steven gets OCD about certain things.
I understand the need for at least justice seeming to have been done with Sherlock after he commits murder...
But what I don't get is this obssession with how badly Sherlock treated Janine.
I mean, it had only been going on about a month, he hadn't slept with her and wasn't actually going to marry her...
She already had pay back from the newspaper stories...really, she'd had enough.
Sherlock needed no futher punishment.

I've made some comments about this a couple of posts up.  Steven (apologies for keeping referring to everybody by their first names) does seem to find this action of Sherlock's difficult.  He's talked about it before, and it seems he was quite shocked (and rightly so!) when he first read it.  HLV gives him a chance to make amends in a little way to Janine.   He explains that in the commentary.  Selling the story gets something for Janine (money), but it doesn't do anything negative to Sherlock (he's not the type to bother. I think they said he'd be faintly embarrassed, but admiring).

So I do see that it's fitting that they make him lose something - a friendship.  And why they don't give him that sweet little talk about beehives and retiring together.    Why should she be friends with him after that?  (Although I get the impression she still feels fondly towards him).   No, he didn't do anything absolutely terrible to her, but the point is he chose to deceive her and to make her feel bad.  There was no need.   He could have done the same thing through befriending her, and (being a good judge of character) he knows it. 

I think there are times when Sherlock is overly punished for things in the series - very much so!  But I don't think this is one of them.  He wronged Janine in a very personal way when he didn't have to, and so he lost her friendship as a result of that.  It's very fitting. 

(I wonder if John continually accepting his deceptions without much comment sets a bad example?  Maybe he should challenge him more?  Did Sherlock really think it was OK to deceive Janine because John doesn't mind being deceived?).

Last edited by Liberty (November 3, 2014 1:19 pm)


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