BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Out?

SolarSystem · October 17, 2014 8:59 pm

This makes for a very interesting read on the whole "Benedict talks about fanfic"-matter, if you ask me:
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/10/why-it-doesn-t-matter-what-benedict-cumberbatch-thinks-sherlock-fan-fiction

Harriet · October 17, 2014 9:07 pm

Lovely, I just finished that! Yes, worth reading. Thanks for being ahead of me posting it

SolarSystem · October 17, 2014 9:12 pm

It's always nice to be ahead of you.

Harriet · October 17, 2014 9:20 pm

Well, for once in a lifetime

SolarSystem · October 17, 2014 9:24 pm

Stop it or I'll go to bed right away.

Harriet · October 17, 2014 9:26 pm

... and because of uh tomorrow

Sleep well, have a lovely night!

SolarSystem · October 17, 2014 9:29 pm

Narrenfreiheit.
You too, my dear, you too!

ancientsgate · October 18, 2014 12:07 am

tonnaree wrote:
Slash fiction goes all the way back to original series Kirk and Spock.

She's deceased now, but I had a friend once who had bookshelves full of old paper copies of K/S slash 'zines. Back in the days before the internet, people found their own ways of networking, self-published the stories into zine format, and sold them to each other. At the time, it was hot stuff!

ancientsgate · October 18, 2014 12:34 am

SolarSystem wrote:
This makes for a very interesting read on the whole "Benedict talks about fanfic"-matter, if you ask me:
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/10/why-it-doesn-t-matter-what-benedict-cumberbatch-thinks-sherlock-fan-fiction

Who is this wise Elizabeth Minkel (I hope I remembered her name right)? She made so many good points in that article! I loved reading it, so thanks to you, SS, for posting; I never would have seen it otherwise. I love the Lustful Cock Monster thing, lol. Anyone order yourself up a tee shirt with this new Sherlock-fan fic-fandom phrase? Too funny.

tonnaree · October 18, 2014 2:42 am

I am now an acolyte of the Lustful Cock Monster,

nakahara · October 18, 2014 8:25 am

SolarSystem wrote:
This makes for a very interesting read on the whole "Benedict talks about fanfic"-matter, if you ask me:
http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/10/why-it-doesn-t-matter-what-benedict-cumberbatch-thinks-sherlock-fan-fiction

Generally a nice apology of fanfiction. Very nice thoughts on the importance of the phenomenon and the realisation of why it´s being written.

But it would feel so much better if the authoress avoided some sweeping generalisations herself.

Apparently Benedict Cumberbatch has a thing for interstellar bondage. It [i]must be his favorite kink. Why else would he, when talking about Star Trek on Top Gear last summer, jump to his favorite John/Sherlock fic trope the second Jeremy Clarkson made a well-worn Kirk/Spock innuendo? “[/i]

Yes, Benedict´s description of Johnlock fanfiction is more than a year old. Funny, how people were able to comprehend that this description was something of a joke at the time:

http://sherlockcares.com/sherlock-is-lost-in-space/

…yet feel absolutely insulted now over this old stuff.

It´s just a further proof things were needlessly blown out of proportion with this, IMHO.

He does refer to the internet as the “world wide inter-lie”; I’m assuming he doesn’t choose to spend much time there.

And when exactly did Benedict Cumberbatch make it secret that he doesn´t do Facebook, Twitter or internet as a whole, that he rather reads a good book instead? Same as the above, this is old news not some sudden revelation about the man.

But does it matter that two middle-aged men with very large platforms were sitting at a table pathologising teenage girls’ sexuality – and making a whole load of potentially harmful assumptions about a topic they know literally nothing about?

Let us be serious: it´s fully OK for teenage girls to take a physical description of a well-known, easily recognisable man and write their favourite rape fantasy about him or some awful alpha-omega story in which said man gets impregnated (but of course, under the guise that the story is not at all about him but about a character he as good as impersonates) - and this is all such an innocent, empowering stuff and the realisation of girls´ creative side…

…but the moment the man in question offers his mere opinion on the matter, he is pathologising teenage girl´s sexuality?

Oh, come on – this is a double standard. And hypocrisy – the bunch of people who just sexualised somebody are insulted that their „victim“ didn´t take it quietly and voiced his thoughts on the matter.

Face it – two guys who don´t read nor understand the stuff badmouthed the fanfiction – but that was just it, no „pathologisation“ was ever intended with that.

Also, the authoress of the article contradicts herself here a bit. She disses BC that he dares to speak about a topic he knows nothing about but in the very next sentence, upon the realisation of how gross it would be if BC actually read such stuff written about him, she admits that „I – and many others – would make the case that it’s not [i]for him.[/i]“

Do what you preach then, dear Elisabeth, and stop dissing the man.

When I say these are largely female-authored texts, it’s not an exaggeration: the majority of fanfic writers are female or non-male (which isn’t to say male authors aren’t welcome, though I can’t speak to anyone’s specific experience).

If the authoress of the article was absolutely honest with herself, she would have to add this: it is mostly unthinkable for a male to write stories similar to what you generally find on „fanfiction.net“ or „Archive of our own“ and not to be labeled pervert or dangerous freak. I´m pretty much sure, that if some male wrote the story in which a famous female character gets viciously raped under the guise that he did it for the empowerment of teenage boys, she wouldn´t feel „oh, the guy is such a skilled artist“… she would call the police very quickly.

Frankly, because we are women and thus above suspicion that writing or reading of such stuff would lead us to commit sexual crimes in real life, we enjoy certain privilege of dealing with those things with impunity. We should be therefore magnanimous and if the person objectified by our stories is uneasy about it, we should be thankfull that he in fact does tolerate it, rather than throwing tantrums about the fact that he bad-mouthed our creations.

Fan fiction, fan art, the way female fans celebrate what they love.

That´s very true. Still, I´m sure most of us read and write the stuff predominantly because it´s fun and because some TV characters look so perfect together, not because we want to make a political statement with it. And we should treat like that – like the source of our enjoyment – not as some kind of holy cow which should be worshipped compulsory.

Celebrities – and some journalists, for that matter – have the platforms, the cultural capital, the power, that a fan, even a collective fandom, lacks: one side has money and authority, while the other side has shared enthusiasm and a lot of beautiful fan art.

But it goes both ways – a celebrity who voiced his unpopular opinion openly does not have the collective power of bunch of anonymous people who can throw stones at him from afar and then hide behind the facelessness of the internet.

When I initially read the Cumberbatch interview I bristled at the suggestion that fanfic is all teenage girls – the stats show that’s not remotely true. But then, I bristled on [i]behalf of teenage girls.[/i]

Oh, stop hiding behind backs of teenage girls. Most fanfictions are not written by them at all – they are the creations of middle-aged and older women. You contradict yourself again with those two sentences. And once again, there´s no reason to bristle at all. Negative opinions of somebody else won´t diminish you or the fanfiction as a whole nor lessen your enjoyment of the stuff. Be more self-assured and stop feeling as if it´s the end of the world because some person doesn´t share the space on your ship. If you can´t stomach differing opinions on such trivial a matter, how can you deal with them in real life, concerning things more serious that this?

Now, concerning the topic of Johnlock fanfiction and sexual jokes on Sherlock, I´m guilty in the first degree, I would read and spread the stuff shamelessly and and do not intend to ever stop. But I simply had to object on those things mentioned above – BC is one of the nicest people active in the media today, he supports women and the minorities, he wouldn´t hurt a fly… he doesn´t deserve to be singled up as some „teenage-girl-kicking monster“.

SusiGo · October 18, 2014 9:32 am

Thank you very much, nakahara. By far the best thing I have read on the topic so far.

Liberty · October 18, 2014 10:33 am

I agree about the generalisations and so on, Nakahara. I think that some of the article is sensible, but there are some valid points that are lost in meanspiritedness. There's no need for the writer to be sarcastic in that way: "Apparently Benedict Cumberbatch has a thing for interstellar bondage. It must be his favorite kink.", "Because that’s not the least bit patronising", etc.

"And people get particularly riled up when it comes to slash (male/male, I mean – two ladies is cool!!), anger at the very suggestion that a character might be gay and engaging in gay sex"
It's never occured to me that Benedict is anti people being gay or having "gay sex". He's talking quite specifically about people writing about a character he plays, doing things that he believes the character wouldn't do, in the context of talking about people misinterpreting the character. It's completely unfair to imply that he's homophobic.

he is not actually the character that he plays, no matter how hard he wishes it
This because he sometimes says "me" instead of "him" (Sherlock) (I imagine it would be awkward if he continually referred to himself in the third person on set - "what if Sherlock does this?" instead of "what if I do this?" all the time). He certainly doesn't seem to try to emulate Sherlock in real life, so why would somebody think he wishes hard to be him?

He doesn't pathologicalise people's sexuality - he just comes up (when asked) with a reason why he thinks people might want to write slash fiction. I also don't like that the writer comes up with the model answer that he "should" have given (about how great fan fiction is) - isn't he entitled to have his own opinion?

I think it's great that people write and enjoy fan fiction (including Johnlock and slash fiction in general). I just don't think it's fair to attack an actor for giving an opinion, just because it's not the correct one (that it's "completely awesome").

Last edited by Liberty (October 18, 2014 11:58 am)

Whisky · October 18, 2014 11:12 am

Late to this. I don't know, I didn't think the original article (from "Out") was too bad, it certainly doesn't annoy me in any way.

The interview just felt very direct with sharp edges - very clear opinions. Not only in the fan fiction part. Maybe it's just not possible to be considerate and general each and every time. I certainly prefer a clear message from people, even if some might be annoyed by it. Never speaking of what you really think just to keep people in good favour is not really my cup of tea. Strong people, even if they are actors/actresses, will always go for their opinion not for some light form of it with can be interpreted in all possible ways. I think it's just the problem of people wanting their "stars" to be something else than they really are.

I try to differ between interviews that feel like the actual person talking, and interviews where the interviewer is the main subject. In this interview, I've felt I learned a lot about how the interviewer wanted to portrait Benedict, and it felt less like Benedict talking to me through the lines. I prefer the second kind of thing, because I want to read about the actor not about what the interviewer has to say. I don't know anything about interview praxis though. But I feel that in this interview, the interviewer did more than just "framing" Benedicts words, and so it feels different than other interviews where I get this clear feeling of Benedict actual speaking, with only a few explanations/ context given by the interviewer later.

When I am sitting in a place, talking to someone, I'd definitely be annoyed if someone stared at me and even came over and interrupted me. Not because I'm a harsh person, but because I'm doing something else right now. There is time for interviews, there is time for fans, maybe it was just that he felt it was interview time not fan time. I really think actors are quite polite anyway. Just because I owe someone (as actors in many ways do their fans), it doesn't mean I have to do everything they want from me. I would completely loose myself. But then again, I don't generally care about meeting celebrity in public everyday places. I'd be dead embarassed to walk up to anyone famous in a supermarket or cafe, on their part as much as mine. Being at a special event where the occasion is explicitely to meet fans, that would be different. And I really wouldn't like people drooling over pictures of me with someone I'm not with. So I'm absolutely fine with all that.

I wonder sometimes if it's even possible to keep drawings general. Some of us sure had a Sherlock version in our minds by reading the books, before seeing an actor giving a body and face to him. If this picture was used for fanart, I think it would be fine. But of course we are heavily influenced by a certain characterization and interpretation by actors. I haven't made up my mind about this yet - I really don't think actual pictures and montage are a good choice, but I'm not sure at all if it's even possible to keep Benedicts features out of fanart, and I'm not sure his appearance and characterization of the character can be kept out of fanfictions. I do read fanfiction, but I do understand e.g. writers who say please keep your fingers off my work it's my character. But if it's a very popular character? I think actors should accept that their features will be included in the general image of a public character. Wouldn't you say? If I think of a Hermione Granger, she will kind of have the face of Emma Watson in my mind, and what could I do about that really? And a Bilbo Baggins... well. Isn't that just a part of the job for actors? Don't they know they give something away from themselves, to add to the character. And they won't get it back?

Edit: oh, okay, now I have read the other article by E. Minkel. Thanks for posting that! It's pretty good brain food and answers a lot for me

"Ironically enough, if they’d been aware that so many fans writing fic are queer, a far more nuanced and sensitive discussion of fanfic could be awesome in Out, one of the US’s pre-eminent LGBT magazines."
This would be indeed a good discussion worth reading.

"It’s easy to blame the celebrity, dragged into answering these questions. But really, the fault lies with the media. Please, please, please journalists: stop asking celebrities about fan fiction. Unless you’re having an in-depth conversation about fictional constructions of the actors’ personae (like the very one you’ll be presenting in your piece?), it serves no purpose. Non-fans likely don’t get it; fans think you look like a bully – because you are."
I really think Benedict would be a person who could start a good in depth discussion. But then again, I think maybe actors and interwiewers have so much other stuff on their minds, maybe they won't really volunteer to lead this discussion into light. Who will though? I get the feeling, with so much fanfiction suddenly being "out there", it should be acknowledged and examined in a neutral light. I've read some scientific works about it, and found them really impressive and well researched.

nakahara wrote:
Still, I´m sure most of us read and write the stuff predominantly because it´s fun and because some TV characters look so perfect together, not because we want to make a political statement with it. And we should treat like that – like the source of our enjoyment – not as some kind of holy cow which should be worshipped compulsory.

I'm not so sure. I'm really asking myself quite often - why do I want to read it? And I'm not so sure it's only for fun. It might not be a plain political statement, but I get the feeling people are getting into this parallel world of fantasy because in "real life" there isn't a place where they can indulge in it. Why isn't there?

damn I'm sorry I wrote so much, need to learn to write less

Last edited by Whisky (October 18, 2014 12:00 pm)

Lilith · October 18, 2014 1:21 pm

I thought long and hard if i really feel like expressing my thoughts on the OUT magazine interview or not. But now that this other link came up i have thought some more and i do think i wanna speak my mind.

First for the original OUT interview. I read it with great interest and really liked it a lot. When i came to the (let's face it very very short part about the fan fiction in a lengthy interview) i chuckled a bit and that was that. Personally i don't read nor write any fan fiction but i have no problem with it being out there. It is not my cup of tea but i don't judge it either. If people are entertained by it, more power to them. Whatever rocks your boat. I tried the occassional Molly/Sherlock story but was quickly bored. So i know it is not for me.

I am personally no JohnLocker at all but as i said, i can avoid it by simply not going there. (Little side note, i do get frustrated though when it gets brought up in other threads and topics and when it is forced upon me when i wanna discuss the actual TV programme and NOT the separate field of fan fiction. But this is my problem but hell, it IS a problem for me. end of getting side-tracked)

So i personally enjoyed the OUT article. Then i came to tumblr and i could barely believe what was unfolding there. A storm (in a tea cup basically) broke loose. I was baffled, really. So many people took a very small part of a long interview and threw hissy fits about what had been said. Really? Couldn't belieeeeeve it. Some of the, what i would call, "fiction faction" reacted pretty hysterically and way over the top, in my opinion. I came here to check but for the longest time there wasn't even a thread created. Maybe users just weren't online or maybe busy or maybe just wanted to let it sink in. After reading all the comments now, i am glad to notice that we have some more level-headed JohnLockers among us who don't freak out over what Benedict said and i am grateful for that.

Admittedly though i was taken aback by that:

ancientsgate wrote:
His saying that stuff, describing his Sherlock that way, makes me wonder if he's ever seen the show more than the required once at some premiere or other. Seriously.

I am of the opinion that he has a huge part in actually creating this character, so why would he need to watch the show to actually understand it? This is beyond me.

I also don't quite understand how some people blamed the interviewer for what happened? I think if Benedict wouldn't have wanted to answer that specific question he could have simply said so. After all it was not a filmed interview, so it would have been easy for him to say "next question" or "i don't discuss this". I think Mr Cumberbatch would be perfectly capable to do so.
and him using exactly the same image with the bed floating in space as he had done before in the Top Gear show kinda gives me the idea that he really doesn't care too much about what is out there. Unlike others i don't think the interviewer just did some research and repeated what BC had said before but that Benedict actually did say this same thing again. We all know from several interviews that he does recount the same things over and over again. I don't blame him one bit. The intervievers can't be bothered to come up with some new questions so why should he bother to come up with freshly worded replies.

Now some in the fandom stated that he clearly doesn't know much about the fan fictions out there. I think he is still perfectly entitled to voice an opinion. Little example. I personally don't like brass music, i don't think i have to take it upon me to listen to all brass music that is out there to confirm me that it is not to my liking.

Now as for the Elizabeth Minkel column, i read it and it rubbed me up the wrong way, really. Tow things particularly. One is her writing

"Then just this week, in an interview with Out editor-in-chief of Aaron Hicklin (ostensibly to promote The Imitation Game and discuss the legacy of Alan Turing), he goes there again."

Did she really write ostensibly? Again, it was a long interview and the movie and Alan Turing were discussed thoroughly and then there was that one little part about .. something else
And i was really annoyed when she wrote this:

"(And someone should gently explain to him that despite the fact that he always refers to himself instead of Sherlock in these exchanges, he is not actually the character that he plays, no matter how hard he wishes it.)"

wow! where does THAT come from? Sorry, this was downright impertinent. He wishes hard to be the character he plays? Please get real, Ms Minkel! Him saying "me" instead of "Sherlock" or "me as Sherlock" i think doesn't mean he mixes up his persona with his character. Let's split hair much, shall we? *rolls eyes to inifinity*

I don't even know for what reasons she brought up that quote by the other actor who had more favourable things to say about the fan fiction issue. Why is it there? That is another person and he has another opinion. So ? What has that to do with Benedict Cumberbatch? Or is to say "see, this is how it can get handled"? I don't get it. Why would BC care what other actors have to say about this when he has his own opinion? She also very much contradicts herself by headlining her column

"why it doesn't matter what Benedict Cumberbatch thinks of Sherlock fan fiction"

and yet writing at the end:

"But what they themselves say can matter a great deal: celebrities – and some journalists, for that matter – have the platforms, the cultural capital, the power, that a fan, even a collective fandom, lacks: one side has money and authority, while the other side has shared enthusiasm and a lot of beautiful fan art."

To bring this to an end. For me the whole thing was being blown totally out of proportion. A very little remark was taken out a long interview. Actually, him only making a little remark kinda shows me that he is very much unfazed by all that. We know he can waffle when something is really important to him So i think fan fiction by and large is not his cup of tea, neither is social media and that's that. The reactions of some "fans" on tumblr were shocking, all kind things had been said and written which were very nasty. I love him being outspoken and having an opinion. And i think he spoke about much more important things within that interview than what had been taken out and dissected to death. Sorry for the long ramble,i start to doubt that i am having a life when something like that really brings me to write such a long rant but it really was boiling inside of me since last Tuesday,.

edit: Top Gear, not Go Gear <-- that is in fact my mp3 player LOL

Last edited by Lilith (October 18, 2014 5:25 pm)

Liberty · October 18, 2014 7:56 pm

Well said.

I think what really makes me sad is that he is being accused of being homophobic, when he's so clearly not. (And when he's promoting The Imitation Game, too).

SusiGo · October 18, 2014 8:23 pm

Liberty: I do not think he was accused of being homophobic but of being insensitive or ignorant about the feelings and the psyche of teenage girls writing/reading fanfiction. IMO this was what caused the outcry on tumblr and elsewhere. This is an explanation, btw, not a justification of those statements.

Lilith: As for his words about Sherlock's character - this is what really struck me, far more than the fanfic stuff. He is describing Sherlock in a way which is just not consistent with what we get in the show, especially not in series 3. He is not a machine, he is not cold and unfeeling. For some fans he was even too emotional and dysfunctional in his job.
These statements made me wonder, tbh, and I think this is what ancientsgate wanted to express.

ancientsgate · October 18, 2014 8:29 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Lilith: As for his words about Sherlock's character - this is what really struck me, far more than the fanfic stuff. He is describing Sherlock in a way which is just not consistent with what we get in the show, especially not in series 3. He is not a machine, he is not cold and unfeeling. For some fans he was even too emotional and dysfunctional in his job. These statements made me wonder, tbh, and I think this is what ancientsgate wanted to express.

Maybe Ben was only talking about a certain aspect of Sherlock's character, because he certainly has moments of being just like that-- cold, dismissive, downright rude. Just like we all do, Sherlock has many facets to his personality-- he is not one-dimensional, which is one of the things we like about Ben's Sherlock. OTOH, if indeed Ben meant that Sherlock is entirely like that, then I stand by what I said-- apparently he hasn't watched the show! *smile*

Last edited by ancientsgate (October 18, 2014 8:30 pm)

besleybean · October 18, 2014 8:48 pm

Yes I think it's just separating 2 different things.

Zatoichi · October 18, 2014 9:10 pm

Everything I wanted to say was already said by nakahara et al., only better.. still silently applauding all of your posts.

For a moment I wondered about the machine-comment, too.. but of course this is bound to stay an important aspect of his character, even though we know by know there are also strong feelings underneath it. (At least I hope it is, at it would be very in tune with ACD´s picture of Holmes which I cherish) Having emotions doesn´t equal being courteous and polite to fangirls approaching him, and I guess that´s all Benedict wanted to express. And to be honest I really appreciated this side of Sherlock´s character being brought to attention again, after reading so many fluffy headcanons..(and S3..)