BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

lil · September 22, 2014 5:08 pm

Magnusson prob used Janine to orchestrate the Mary/Sherlock/John confrontation....in order to make his...get me blah@Mycroft Sherlock or...tell bad guys/cia .. where Mary is play....he had the stick in his pocket like Smallwoods letters...ready to blackmail the 3 of them.

He didn't expect Mary to come ready to kill him...and Mary didn't expect Sherlock/John to be there...

Mycroft left Mary with John like cheese in a rat trap...for Moriartys connections/dead mans switch to show up for a nibble..when a dragon nibbled...he let/told Sherlock to kill the dragon.
Because Mycroft.....can't handle a broken heart...

Thus everything Mary did was in true femme fatale style...because other people used her...the cia/wetwork...dear Jim...after her supposed new life..then Magnusson@Mycroft...she always has an excuse....ambiguous as always...

Last edited by lil (September 22, 2014 5:33 pm)

Liberty · September 28, 2014 4:01 pm

Interesting point about the memory stick - I wonder if (like the letters) that was a fake?

I'm wondering about the wording of Magnusson's telegram at the wedding. Why does he specifically mention Mary's family? Is it a reference to something else (a Godfather-type, criminal family)? Does he think Mary's family are her pressure point? Is he threatening them? Who are her family? There could be parents, but she could also have an older child (although Dr Watson might have guessed if she'd had signs of giving birth before). She gets the threat/warning/whatever it is at the same event where she finds out that she's creating a new family.

lil · September 28, 2014 4:46 pm

I think maybe spy novel genre...The family down @the farm.....cia?

Zatoichi · October 12, 2014 7:13 pm

The more I think about it and read other people´s opinions, the more I´m convinced we are meant to take the surgery-explanation and the reconciliation at face value. It has nothing to do with how believable I think it is (imo it isn´t really), but with how willing I think the creators are to use it anyway.

Also I found the argument pretty plausible that it´d be really difficult to sell yet another plot twist in the good-Mary-bad-Mary-game to the casual viewers, who, after 2 years hiatus, probably don´t even recall much of what was said in HLV anymore. It´s not completely impossible, but I think it´d be very complicated to set it up convincingly without becoming repetitive. Or what do you guys think, could they pull it off?

Yet another point is that I don´t really want John to be lying to his pregnant weeping wife.. I mean he´s meant to be honorable and upright, and scheming against her while at the same time playing the forgiving husband.. would be about the same category of betrayal that she displayed before. And I don´t really want John to act like this.. not for her sake, but for his.. if that makes any sense?

(I have my very own Mary-wank going on inside my head..^^)

Liberty · October 12, 2014 8:19 pm

It does make sense. John has a little bit of catching up to do in the honour stakes (compared to Sherlock, in my opinion), and I really appreciate his lack of subterfuge and deviousness.   And I can believe that he believes Sherlock and believes what he's saying to Mary himself.   He's almost innocent at times - I can imagine him thinking that Sherlock believes the surgery story and taking at face value, and really believing that Mary tried to spare Sherlock.   He has such faith in Sherlock. I can accept that. And also, it's been made clear that he isn't good at lying and hiding things. He might be able to do it for that speech, but it would be difficult for him to maintain.

I find it much more difficult to accept that Sherlock believes the surgery story, far less that it's the truth.   So I can accept John believing it (and genuinely forgiving Mary - although I don't think that quite makes sense, but he has been rather unfairly been led to believe that he wanted Mary because of what she was, that he's somehow partially responsible), but can't believe it myself.

If there's one thing that sways me it's the choice by the writers to have Sherlock "die".   It's not necessary for the story except to show that the surgery explanation isn't true.   I do see what you're saying about the difficulty of setting up that plot twist 2 years down the line ... it's possible that it will always be left ambiguous, that Mary will die and we'll never know for sure. (Like the unanswered questions after TRF).    But I also don't see how Mary can just be a good character after the 2 years. Her past and her motivations have to be part of the story, I think.    I think she's going to have to be central to the first episode of S4, and might even have a key role over the whole of S4, so there will be time to flashback to the shooting if needed. (I'm saying this hopefully, because I'll be fizzing if they do gloss it over).

Last edited by Liberty (October 12, 2014 8:24 pm)

SusiGo · October 12, 2014 8:43 pm

I agree with many things you say, Liberty, just some thoughts:

The one thing that makes me doubt that John believes the surgery story is the fact that he is a doctor. He should know far better than Sherlock how risky it is to shoot someone in the upper body. And his reaction, the way he is looking at Mary when Sherlock collapses, is not exactly proof of his believing in "surgery".

Sherlock "dying" IMO has two functions - showing that the surgery explanation is not true and how much he cares about John.

I am not sure if they will be going back in detail over HLV but just making us accept a redeemed Mary seems a bit cheap to me. And I do not think that this is going to happen. Not sure if she will turn out a real villain or remain a morally grey character but I think as yet we do not know everything about her character and there will be surprises.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 12, 2014 8:52 pm

I don't really see John as all that innocent-- he killed a man in the very first episode--and never owned up to it, he actually joked an laughed about it. His weapon is illegal-- he still carries it with the intention of using it, if he needs to, He's not all that wonderful and thoughtful with his girlfriends, either-- and it's not *all Sherlock's fault. There have been so many of them he can't keep them straight. :-)

I think he tends to be more willfully blind than innocent.

I agree with Mary being a key figure in s4--

Okay, this is going to sound like I'm on crack; and I really, really hope I'm wrong, but-- do you guys remember Mofftiss telling the press that the next season is supposed to be much, much darker, and that when they told the staff what their plans were, it reduced the staff to tears?

Suppose in s4 they kill off John Watson? And then Sherlock ends up paired with another "Watson"-- the female, ex-assassin kind? Mary Watson?

YIKES. Please, no-- but it makes sense, and i wouldn't put it past Mofftiss to do something like this.

Somebody talk me down!!! :-(

SusiGo · October 12, 2014 8:55 pm

This would be the moment I leave this fandom forever. And I will not be the only one. The one sure way to kill off the show. And I am sure the fans would not stick with this couple, apart from the fact that it has been done by Elementary (having a female Watson).

Last edited by SusiGo (October 12, 2014 8:55 pm)

Harriet · October 12, 2014 9:08 pm

No, Raven, it doesn't make sense, sorry

Liberty · October 12, 2014 9:11 pm

@ Susi They could have shown Sherlock caring about John (and the whole mind palace scene, in fact) without the "flatlining", though, and it would still have been very powerful. Looking it at the other way round, how could they show that what Sherlock is saying is a lie?   Well, the obvious way would be to show that Mary actually did kIll Sherlock - which is essentially what they've done. I've tried to look at it another way and think of another reason it has to be there, but I can't think of anything good enough.

I do agree that John could know the truth (we never even find out what he and Sherlock talked about when setting up the scene with Mary, or what was said between the confrontation and the reconciliation). But I find it much easier to believe that John is genuinely reconciling with Mary, than that Mary didn't mean to kill Sherlock.

@Raven I'm probably not using "innocent" very well, and wilfully blind is better.   Yes, he carries a gun, but (for instance) his shooting of the cabbie was kind of innocent - it's almost a child-like solution.   He does seem to have faith in Sherlock and not doubt him, in a innocent way, even though he knows and sees that he's capable of deception. I think that as long as he believed Sherlock believed something, he could believe it himself, especially if it was what he wanted to believe.

That would certainly be a twist, but I don't see it happening.   So much has been said about how could Benedict and Martin are together, and it would be such a huge break from canon. I know they've changed John for the TV, but Mary would be such a different character - I don't see it!   Have to admit that I didn't pick up on that significance of Mary's name being Watson, though!    I'd be OK with one episode, maybe, where Mary takes over from John for some reason (although I'm still struggling to see her as a goodie).

SusiGo · October 12, 2014 9:19 pm

I agree with you about the flatlining. And it is no coincidence that we hear Molly telling Sherlock that he has only three seconds of consciousness left which contradicts him watching or hearing Mary phone the ambulance. Quite apart from the fact that he had better things to do. Moreover, Sherlock himself is sure that he is going to die, that he has been murdered and he is told so by Mycroft who is never wrong. Taken together this is all proof that the surgery explanation is a lie.

Sorry but I really cannot bear thinking about Mary and Sherlock solving cases with John out of the picture. Maybe there are people who want to see that but I am not one of them. And I know that we do not always get what we want and that writers are free to do with their characters whatever they want. But they have always stressed that Sherlock and John are not only at the core of the show but that they are the show. Apart from the fact that in canon there is no other character ever taking John's place.

Last edited by SusiGo (October 12, 2014 9:22 pm)

Zatoichi · October 13, 2014 9:05 am

SusiGo wrote:
I agree with you about the flatlining. And it is no coincidence that we hear Molly telling Sherlock that he has only three seconds of consciousness left which contradicts him watching or hearing Mary phone the ambulance. Quite apart from the fact that he had better things to do. Moreover, Sherlock himself is sure that he is going to die, that he has been murdered and he is told so by Mycroft who is never wrong. Taken together this is all proof that the surgery explanation is a lie.

I too cannot see it any different than a lie.. and if S4 would just continue to treat it as true solution I know I´d have problems with remaining invested in the show. So I really hope you are right.. but I have doubts. So many people don´t have problems with the explanation, I bought it myself at first and it took me several weeks of mulling over it before I made up my mind against it. And there are so many more things in S3 that make no sense to me but are meant to be taken at face value.. so I wouldn´t really put it past them to just go for it and rely on the majority of viewers not really caring too much.

Plus it wouldn´t be the first time they´d leave a pretty holey explanation for us to swallow.. and knowing how playful they are with mixed messages and inconsistent details.. maybe they´ll poke some (good-hearted) fun at the people coming up with elaborate theories in S4 and have Sherlock make some kind of "everyone´s a critic"-speech again.. (Seems like I´ve developed some trust issues since S3..)

@Raven: I really can´t see this happening, Martin said explicitly that without the tension between John and Sherlock there´d be no show, and I guess everyone involved knows this is true.. *passes some herbal soothers*

SusiGo · October 13, 2014 9:13 am

I see what you mean, Zatoichi, and I understand your arguments.
With me it was a bit different - the Baker Street scene never sat well with me and I remember that even while watching it for the first time I kept thinking, no, they cannot be serious, they do not want me to buy that stuff. I am not talking about details like Magnussen reaching for the phone or Sherlock only having three seconds of consciousness and so on … for me it is the larger picture. Putting Sherlock and Mary on the same level is so very much against the character they have created over three series, against the great/good man concept developed since ASiP. So, yes, I for once would be quite disappointed if everything had to be taken at face value.

lil · October 13, 2014 11:11 am

It bothers me that they may /prolly will return with something of a time gap. That Mary sort of murdered Sherlock and others .... and after We, Mycroft and John all move on and are supposed to go meh and swallow watching them play happy families with a cute baby..which does seem to be the episodal modus operandi.
So idk if I will still be as admiring of the show next season.
Which is depressing....so /excitement !
MG tweeted yesterday he was exhausted after writing Sherlock all day - lets pretend he fixed it.!

SusiGo · October 13, 2014 11:16 am

But this would not be exactly dark, would it? If they show us such an idyllic situation at all, I suppose it will be destroyed very soon.
And Mark will be probably working on the special which might be something completely different and not a continuation of HLV.

lil · October 13, 2014 11:33 am

@Susie agree @ the special will be good.
@the very dark...yes that sounds hopeful...but usually they build it before they knock it down..which leaves a kind of limbo in between with Johns apparant forgiveness of Mary.
I suppose if that wasn't genuine...then very dark @the beginning and building up...

nakahara · October 13, 2014 2:03 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Suppose in s4 they kill off John Watson? And then Sherlock ends up paired with another "Watson"-- the female, ex-assassin kind? Mary Watson?

YIKES. Please, no-- but it makes sense, and i wouldn't put it past Mofftiss to do something like this.

Somebody talk me down!!! :-(

Well, if that happens, an angry horde armed with pitchforks and flais will attack BBC and trashes it to the ground, defenestrating Moftiss in between. And I would be at the forefront of that mob.

besleybean · October 13, 2014 9:53 pm

Not going to happen.

Liberty · November 1, 2014 12:27 pm

I've just found this post suggesting that Mary could be a character from The Valley of Fear. It's quite a long post and there's too much to summarise here, but have a look! I thought it was an interesting read.

(I hadn't thought too much about the significane of Mary saying that Sherlock would have needed a confidant to fake his death. I know it shows that Mary thinks like an assassin/spy - she's intrigued by Sherlock's methods, but of course, it's much more personal - she must have faked her own death five years ago and she's comparing methods. The writer says that one option is another fake death - "ghosts" indeed!

I'd wondered if the "family" in Magnusson's telegram could have referred to a Mafia-type family - that would fit with a gang.)

Last edited by Liberty (November 1, 2014 6:41 pm)

besleybean · November 1, 2014 5:04 pm

I seriously think at the moment, Mary is THE mot interesting character and I'm only concerned I give her too much weight.
Is she a plant b y Moriarty, were she and Janine working together...was she even planted by Mycroft to deal with Magnusson and the whole thing went tits up...I dunno!
Can't wait to see how all this pans out and when she does die(which i'm presuming she will), will we all feel mega sorry for her, or glad to see her go?