BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

Schmiezi · October 5, 2014 7:47 pm

Your comment makes me wonder under what circumstances I myself will forgive Mary for shooting Sherlock. Not an easy question. I think (but that might change) that the only way for me to forgive her would be a really convincing explaination why she HAD to shoot Sherlock.

Thinking about that again, it might be hard for me to forgive her, no matter what, TBH.

SusiGo · October 5, 2014 8:57 pm

Strictly speaking, John does not forgive Mary for shooting Sherlock. Neither does Sherlock. Forgiveness is never asked nor granted in this context.
There is only one true forgiveness scene in series 3 and it does not concern Mary. Just saying.

besleybean · October 6, 2014 5:57 am

Well I don't know what we want to call John saying his future with Mary is a privilege, but yeah, that...

Liberty · October 6, 2014 6:53 am

It's quite a nice little (prepared) speech, and I suppose we're waiting to see if it's heartfelt or not.    There's something slightly odd ... or maybe that's because I don't trust Mary and don't feel that John should .

John forgiving Sherlock was odd too - what was there to forgive? What could Sherlock have done differently?   I understand that they both feel the need to have this exchange, but Sherlock hasn't wronged John (he has at other times, but not in this case). He acted as he did to save John and others, and the hurt caused was part of the fallout.

Unless ... the message is that Sherlock will now tell John what's going on, even if it puts him at risk, and trust him to be able to keep it secret.   That could mean that the scene between John and Mary is set up by Sherlock.   It's interesting that it takes place, not quite in private, but in that controlled situation at the Holmes's with Sherlock and Mycroft on hand. (Even Sherlock's mum ready to turn monstrous! ).

lil · October 6, 2014 7:24 am

I don't think Sherlock cares about forgiving Mary or W/E....he can probably let that go.....but Mary still has mystery....and unless Sherlock read the memory stick .....would he let that go considering...how much he hates saying....IDK..?
So I have always thought Sherlock read the stick...as part of the Magnusson/Mary case.....he would have to wouldn't he...
Mary made her choice...in TEH.....skipcode...James or John..Sinner or Saint.....she swapped sides...the Moriarty thing is either a ploy to see if she sticks....or her past...turning up for revenge...maybe missme? Is a message to Mary..cos I still think it was a wife swap.

besleybean · October 6, 2014 8:03 am

Interesting.

Davina · October 6, 2014 9:51 am

Question: is Mary only concerned with protecting herself? My take on it is that more likely there are still others who she knew and was close to (family even) in her previous life that she needs to protect. She protects them by having had her old persona disappear. That's what people do for the ones they love. Just putting this out there.

Liberty · October 6, 2014 9:58 am

Yes, there's that telegram that mentions her family. Presumably she has a pressure point which isn't John. She's pregnant as well, not that that excuses anything, but could make her more protective as a mother-to-be (Sherlock's mum suggests that she'd do something awful to whoever harmed him!). I think there's so much we don't know about her and her motivations.

SusiGo · October 6, 2014 10:24 am

True, the telegram has not been explained so far. And it may be that she wants to protect herself and/or her family against Magnussen. But this does not change anything about the fact that she does not shoot the person threatening her security but the person trying to help. We have been over this often enough but this is how I see it.

Harriet · October 6, 2014 12:56 pm

lil, I think you have discovered something!

Zatoichi · October 6, 2014 2:54 pm

Davina wrote:
Question: is Mary only concerned with protecting herself? My take on it is that more likely there are still others who she knew and was close to (family even) in her previous life that she needs to protect. She protects them by having had her old persona disappear. That's what people do for the ones they love. Just putting this out there.

That´s something I think is very possible. It wouldn´t change my opinion on her shooting Sherlock, I still don´t think she tried to save him, but it could explain why she saw no other possibility than to get him out of the way. Even if she liked him, he clearly wasn´t her priority. Depending on what kind of priority she has (children left behind that would become her pressure point if her true identity became known?) it might force me to (partly) forgive her.. but I hope that´s not the storyline they´ll go for. (I turned a bit monstrous because she put a bullet in my boy, I want to see my revenge.. )

Last edited by Zatoichi (October 6, 2014 3:06 pm)

besleybean · October 6, 2014 5:55 pm

Personally I find the concept of revenge loathsome.
Contrition and forgiveness are much more to my liking.

Liberty · October 6, 2014 7:06 pm

I agree in real life, but it can be satisfying in fiction . It's not revenge, but I don't think Mary does have a great life - she'll always be waiting to be found out (and possibly eliminated), her relationship with John is dodgy (he fell for somebody who doesn't exist and who she can never be), she has no family, the sole friend we see is somebody she was using for her own purposes (all her relationships are under false pretences), she's potentially made an enemy of somebody who could have been a strong ally (Sherlock), and she's going to have to be a mother shortly on top of all that. It's all her fault, but I can feel a little bit sorry for her. It feels more comfortable for her to be a villain, because I don't think she has any chance at happy ever after as a good guy anyway.

Sorry, off topic. Johnlock - I'd be really interested to see it as a fantasy/dream sequence. I'd love that.

Zatoichi · October 6, 2014 7:25 pm

Liberty wrote:
I agree in real life, but it can be satisfying in fiction .

Exactly this.

Sorry - back to Johnlock again .

besleybean · October 6, 2014 7:30 pm

But that is Johnlock and it's all good: fan art, fan fics and fan vids.

lil · October 8, 2014 3:46 pm

Agree@bb..but Magnussons blackmail was ultimately about revenge..people want to kill Mary..and as for redemption..you have to ask and you have to be contrite.
Back at the Johnlockery tho..in comparison Sherlocks forgiveness did seem more heartfelt and sentimental to me than Marys...tho amusingly both were manipulations...Mary had the baby...Sherlock had a bomb..

SusiGo · October 20, 2014 1:54 pm

Thank you, Jude.

http://bert-and-ernie-are-gay.tumblr.com/post/100246140491/kluckleberry-while-bbc-sherlock-is-at-the

besleybean · October 20, 2014 3:57 pm

The Gospel according to Jude.

SusiGo · October 20, 2014 3:59 pm

Indeed.

SolarSystem · October 20, 2014 4:03 pm

And here is a short bit of that interview on YT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xr8xPQ_zbk