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October 4, 2014 8:44 pm  #601


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Agree@lib@Susie.
I think there was only so far he wld go for the work...but I think he allowed the Janine thing deliberately to go that way...just to observe John..in a sort of use the case to do things I want to test........and because I love Janine and Yasmine is awesomely hot...I think she will be Sherlocks new BFF..@..SH got the friends message and she got the he's gay message.

As an aside...the did seem to be an odd moment in TBB...when he called Sebastian. .Seb.....and
I bet someone will mention 7 times at him in the future...Molly...Lestrade...etc probably believe it.

 

October 5, 2014 6:30 am  #602


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I'm not sure about the "gay" message - I think that has been left deliberately ambiguous (again!).    Janine just says that she knows what kind of man he is (which is an odd way to put it if she simply meant that he was gay).   What makes it even more suspect is that I don't imagine Janine would have wanted to have sex with him if he was gay (i.e. not at all attracted to her).    But I think what it really means is that the writers didn't want to pin Sherlock down as gay - probably because they know we like to be able to imagine what we want, and because they like it being open to them writing what they want in future series' (I would guess). 

Seb - I don't know, there might be something odd on Sherlock's part, but I don't see it on Sebastian's part.   I don't think he's an ex.  There could have been something there, but maybe unrequited.  Sebastian makes the comment about Sherlock knowing who people had had sex with (implying that Sebastian was having sex with somebody else).  I don't think they've had sex. 

(I just watched that scene again.  Sherlock lets John do most of the talking, while he does a lot of thinking.  I think Sherlock's use of "Seb" might be just reminding Sebastian of their uni days, the reason Sebastian hired him, because he's better than police.   I think Sebastian then is more or less admitting [subtext] that he knows Sherlock is right, but saying that he doesn't want to deal with a murder case). 

Do you think Molly and Lestrade believe it?  I think the stories are so ridiculous that they make the whole thing look like a lie.   Lestrade's more likely to believe it than Molly. 

Last edited by Liberty (October 5, 2014 3:42 pm)

 

October 5, 2014 7:27 am  #603


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I always to the 'I know what kind of man you are' as an emotional thing, rather than sexual. Maybe I'm not superficial enough for this. 

 

October 5, 2014 7:49 am  #604


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I ostensibly took it to mean Janine knew Sherlock didn't really do relationships...
But she could also have meant that he uses people for his own purposes.


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October 5, 2014 2:22 pm  #605


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I personally don't think that Sherlock is a virgin. i think he is experienced but for one reason or another (probably for not getting distracted) he chooses not to live his sexuality.
As for him calling Sebastian "Seb", my take on it is that Sebastian is condescing and ridiculing him, he has that nasty attitude of someone who looks down on people, so Sherlock calling him Seb could also be a counter attack to his constant "hey buddy" attitude.

 

October 5, 2014 3:29 pm  #606


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I just took it that Sherlock considered Seb an old friend...


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October 5, 2014 3:46 pm  #607


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Yes. I don't think he was an ex or anything..just in that Seb moment...Sherlock. ..who doesn't do/have friends...seems to be using the ..old friend leverage...which is odd.
So maybe at uni...even though they all hated him...he himself was a little more friendly....but by the time we meet him he gave up trying..idk...likely just a quirk from MT writing.

 

October 5, 2014 5:26 pm  #608


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I don't think there's any huge mystery...
Maybe at uni all the cool kids called him Seb, so Sherlock just used it, too!


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October 5, 2014 9:30 pm  #609


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

silverblaze wrote:

I always to the 'I know what kind of man you are' as an emotional thing, rather than sexual. Maybe I'm not superficial enough for this. 

Maybe you could explain what you mean by "superficial"?
 


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... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

October 5, 2014 11:56 pm  #610


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I'm thinking (maybe I'm not alone) that maybe Janine's line "I know what kind of man you are" refers to the fact that Sherlock did not use her sexually, therefore she was kind of saying "You're a good, honourable man, in a very weird way". She had time to think,"okay, he used me to get to my boss, but he did it with all the delicacy and care he could find".

Lestrade also told us that he thinks Sherlock is a "great man" and could even be "a good one". I don't think anyone would say that about a sad case of psychopathy...

 

October 6, 2014 6:14 am  #611


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Yes...but he said that to her at Baker Street too..before he was exposed. ..so maybe...his....no sex before marriage excuse...was used earlier also.

 

October 6, 2014 7:55 am  #612


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Well, she does say something like "I'm the only one who knows what you're really like" at Baker Street.  I think she's on to him all along.  Magnusson is using her to get to Sherlock, Sherlock is using her to get to Magnusson.  But I think that she might be using Sherlock to get to Magnusson too ("Solve me a crime, Sherlock Holmes" - which, she says as Magnusson is on his way over to see Sherlock to flash the letters at him, Janine having already given Sherlock the information that Magnusson won't be in his office later). 

Actually, that exchange is kind of funny, because they both know they're going to see each other later at Magnusson's office!

I don't think he used the no sex before marriage excuse - I don't think he'd mentioned marriage.  Although he'd hinted at it by throwing her the buttonhole at the wedding, but she'd known at the time that was false (she goes off with somebody else).   The whole proposal was ridiculous as Janine was already going to let him in to Magnusson's office anyway.  It looks like Magnusson is there when Sherlock makes the proposal (we aren't shown who is with Janine, but Magnusson's seat is very warm when Sherlock arrives). 

At a stretch, "I know what kind of man you are" could mean that she knows he's Sherlock Holmes, the (apparently asexual) consulting detective and that it was obvious that that their relationship was for a case.   And "we could have been friends" meant that they could have collaborated. 

In the lift, Sherlock tells John that Janine will leave him when she finds out that their relationship was a ruse.   I think he's joking and winding John up, but it's funny that he hints that he would continue with the relationship if Janine didn't leave him.   I don't think he would but ... I think there's a little bit of regret there that he's not part of the "human relationships" world, by choice.  I felt that at the wedding too - that Sherlock becomes very conscious that by rejecting that world and being married to his work, he's missing out on something. 

Anyway, because Sherlock deliberately represses his sexuality, we don't get to know anything for sure.   I think not having sex with Janine is to protect her, or him, or both.  I think also, that Steven Moffat said he was shocked by Sherlock Holmes deception in the story and thought it was a terrible thing to do - and perhaps the fact that he had limits helps to soften the blow a bit. 

 

October 6, 2014 8:06 am  #613


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Yes I don't imagine Canon Holmes had sex either.


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October 6, 2014 8:09 am  #614


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

No, but that would have been quite acceptable in those days.  I could believe that canon Watson and Mary didn't have sex before marriage either. 

I like the modern twist that Janine would have been happier if they'd had sex. 

 

October 6, 2014 8:15 am  #615


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Honestly this is no dig at you, rather shows my peculiarities but yeah...the great liberation of women: free to have sex!(Rolls eyes!)


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October 6, 2014 8:23 am  #616


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

IMO it is a liberation that today women can principally choose between having sex or not. Not long ago rape in marriage was no crime. And women who chose to have sex before marriage or with people they did not want to marry were regarded as morally corrupt. I think we have come a long way since then. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

October 6, 2014 8:25 am  #617


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

In modern Western and generally secular cultures, yes!
We have these rights.


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October 6, 2014 8:27 am  #618


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

I was speaking of those. Sadly there are many countries in which it is different. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

October 6, 2014 8:47 am  #619


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

Sadly I think even within  some communities in our countries...


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October 6, 2014 11:43 am  #620


Re: Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

It seems that in mix culture marriages, sometimes the guys just don't get it. It might be ok for you to smack your wife around in your home country but here in Australia, this is NOT legal.

Doesn't stop the guys from continuing this practice and using their religion to justify it. Before you say that it's okay according to your religion, please pick up your holy book and actually READ it. No where in the Quran does it say that it's okay to smack your wife around. What you consider to be a normal way to treat your girl is actually cultural problem not a religious one. Your culture is so backward that it can't tell the difference between cultural practices and religious practices. Using religion to justify your act doesn't make what you do right and it doesn't mean that it's sanctioned by God.

Last edited by saturnR (October 6, 2014 11:44 am)

 

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