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October 4, 2014 11:51 am  #2261


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Exactly, they were together years before Sherlock disappeared...they could have got together any time.
Yet John proposed to Mary after 6 monhs.


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October 4, 2014 11:55 am  #2262


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

If Mary is the love of his life, then I really wonder why we do not see more to prove this. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

October 4, 2014 12:01 pm  #2263


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I really don't know how much more you exepct to see in a show not dedicated to that aspect of the support character's life.
He's certainly done more with her than he has with Sherlock or any man.
Though I suspect he has wth many other women.

Last edited by besleybean (October 4, 2014 12:01 pm)


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October 4, 2014 12:08 pm  #2264


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Much more? But we do not see anything - the proposal is interrupted, at night in bed he dreams or thinks of Sherlock, we do not see the actual wedding ceremony, the whole wedding completely centres on him and Sherlock and Mary becomes a bystander at her own wedding.
In three episodes we do not get one single scene with John (one of the two major characters) and Mary in which they do not discuss Sherlock/are together with Sherlock/are standing in front of his grave. Not a single one in 270 minutes.
So please do not tell me to believe that she is the love of his life. John might think or hope she is (not sure about that though) but it is contradicted by the whole script and the way it has been filmed. This is called subtext. 

Last edited by SusiGo (October 4, 2014 12:10 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

October 4, 2014 12:35 pm  #2265


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I hope you're right...
Though it may just have something to do with the show being called Sherlock.

Last edited by besleybean (October 4, 2014 12:36 pm)


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October 4, 2014 1:54 pm  #2266


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I can't think of anything worse than Mary dieing some tragic heroine's death and Sherlock having to shoulder Johns grief and help him through......the storyline I dread.

Since the beginning Sherlocks done so much for John...curing the limp..dragging him into his work....letting him blog his private life..exposing his weakness' s...jumping from Barts...returning..to not a heros welcome...arranging his wedding teaching him to dance..writing the romantic tune....and then the whole reuniting him with the woman that shot him and shooting Magnusson. ?.

And all Johns done in return is be a bit of a whiny meanie!
Surely it's Johns turn to do things for Sherlock.

I realise Sherlocks mostly dark satire and none of the characters are perfect.....but really redeem Mary?......cant they just do something darky hilarious and drop a house on her or something......so they can giggle at the funeral......

 

October 4, 2014 1:57 pm  #2267


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think Watson's later wife was simply one of Doyle's many continuity errors. He'd probably just forgotten that he'd killed Mary off in the Empty House. 

I think canon Watson was straight and canon Holmes could have been anything. This was the time of Oscar Wilde, it was possible to be gay as long as no one found out. It wouldn't surprise me if gay people of that time often would find purpose in life other than in relationships, like in the arts and sciences. 

 

October 4, 2014 4:55 pm  #2268


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

If canon Watson was straight and canon Holmes could have been anything, then I think the series has actually stuck pretty close to the original in their depictions (except that the relationship with Irene definitely looks more like sexual attraction on TV). 

I agree that the name of the show being "Sherlock" is a giveaway - it is about Sherlock, ultimately.   It's not just John who always involves Sherlock even when he's not in the scene - the other characters do it too.   (For instance, the whole point of Lestrade and Anderson's Waters gang story was about Sherlock in the end).  Sherlock is the primary character (the show revolves around him).   And Sherlock and John is the primary relationship.   I don't think it's going to sidetrack from that. 

The wedding isn't included in canon, either, and I don't think that's really meant to be an indication of the lack of Watson's feelings for Mary, but more because of Sherlock being the focus of the stories.  Steven Moffat said that he wanted to see the best man's speech (which would centre around Sherlock), and that's the bit that got written in! 

It would be nice to see John doing things for Sherlock after S3.  I wonder if it would be possible to have a John-focused episode?  With lots of John and not so much Sherlock.   I don't know if I really want one (only because I don't want less Sherlock), but it could be really interesting.   The very first episode started off more like the books, more from John's point of view, and John tried to save Sherlock at the end.    

 

October 5, 2014 3:06 pm  #2269


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

Much more? But we do not see anything - the proposal is interrupted, at night in bed he dreams or thinks of Sherlock, we do not see the actual wedding ceremony, the whole wedding completely centres on him and Sherlock and Mary becomes a bystander at her own wedding.
In three episodes we do not get one single scene with John (one of the two major characters) and Mary in which they do not discuss Sherlock/are together with Sherlock/are standing in front of his grave. Not a single one in 270 minutes.
So please do not tell me to believe that she is the love of his life. John might think or hope she is (not sure about that though) but it is contradicted by the whole script and the way it has been filmed. This is called subtext. 

 
I think u right


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 and i'm klainer too
 

October 5, 2014 3:30 pm  #2270


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Even though Mary is prepared to do anything to protect John?


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October 5, 2014 3:52 pm  #2271


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

Even though Mary is prepared to do anything to protect John?

I think that mary is moran
Maby she is Assassin in the pool
and (Not connected) but i really want victor trevor in  sherlock
 


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 and i'm klainer too
 

October 5, 2014 5:27 pm  #2272


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Who is Victor Trevor?


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October 5, 2014 5:31 pm  #2273


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

He is an old friend of Canon Sherlock Holmes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Gloria_Scott

The idea of the TEH skip code originates from this story. 

Last edited by SusiGo (October 5, 2014 5:33 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

October 5, 2014 5:39 pm  #2274


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo wrote:

He is an old friend of Canon Sherlock Holmes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Adventure_of_the_Gloria_Scott

The idea of the TEH skip code originates from this story. 

 
In gloria soctt  there is a ship name for then viclock


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 and i'm klainer too
 

October 5, 2014 5:44 pm  #2275


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh yeah I remember now!...


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October 5, 2014 7:07 pm  #2276


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

besleybean wrote:

Even though Mary is prepared to do anything to protect John?

It seems to me Mary is prepared to do anything to protect herself.


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"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

October 5, 2014 7:15 pm  #2277


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

tonnaree wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Even though Mary is prepared to do anything to protect John?

It seems to me Mary is prepared to do anything to protect herself.

me too. And I think we have already discussed the fact that Mary's love seems to be rather selfish. I believe that she loves John, but not in the selfless way other people might love him.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

October 5, 2014 7:20 pm  #2278


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Maybe next time we'll get the full details of her story.


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October 5, 2014 7:28 pm  #2279


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I am not sure that would change anything for me. I would be more interested in whether Sherlock was right saying this "it was surgery" stuff or not. Because I have no problem with forgiving / understanding Mary's past, but I am quite unforgiving when it comes to the tiny shooting-Sherlock bit.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

October 5, 2014 7:39 pm  #2280


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

So the crux is if Sherlock and John are both really forgiving Mary...on the information they have.


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