I could not agree more, tonnaree. 

Yes, as I said, it happens.  But it's pretty dishonourable.   And I don't mean about whether he's bisexual or not (if he is, he could well have been honest with Mary about that - I imagine most couples have that conversation).   Regardless of the sex of the friend, it's a huge betrayal. 

(Although, of course, if he wasn't actually attracted to women/Mary at all, as some believe, and wasn't absolutely honest about this being a marriage of convenience, then that would be another deception and betrayal).

I think that if it was a strong attraction then John would definitely be consciously aware of it, especially after all that time.  It's something that's very difficult to ignore!  (How do you feel when you really, really fancy somebody and they touch you, or even just look in your eyes?  It's electric! You can't not know, can you?). 

SolarSystem wrote:

So you really believe there only is one Johnlock interpretation...?

No, what I meant was that some (not all!) of the writers don't seem to able to see any other interpretations.   There are no shades of grey.   They are, of course, completely entitled to their own opinions, and to post them online - I have no objection to that, and they have no obligation to try to convince me .   What I'm saying is it makes it more difficult for me to see the argument if there isn't really an argument, and no balance, just a one-sided assertion.  I'll maybe try to find an example (I'm a bit wary of talking about posts outside this forum where the people aren't here to defend themselves, but I'll think about it and get back to you). 

Liberty wrote:

Yes, as I said, it happens.  But it's pretty dishonourable.   And I don't mean about whether he's bisexual or not (if he is, he could well have been honest with Mary about that - I imagine most couples have that conversation).   Regardless of the sex of the friend, it's a huge betrayal. 

(Although, of course, if he wasn't actually attracted to women/Mary at all, as some believe, and wasn't absolutely honest about this being a marriage of convenience, then that would be another deception and betrayal).

I think that if it was a strong attraction then John would definitely be consciously aware of it, especially after all that time.  It's something that's very difficult to ignore!  (How do you feel when you really, really fancy somebody and they touch you, or even just look in your eyes?  It's electric! You can't not know, can you?). 

This topic once again reminds me of real life example of the man who had done exactly the thing you are speaking about:



Jeremy Brett, one of the best "Sherlock Holmeses" of all times, was married twice. The first wife left him - because while married to her, he was also involved with some man at the same time.

So not only "it happens" - it really happened to one of "Sherlock Holmes" actors. Was it a betrayal for Jeremy to cheat his wife? Yes, it certainly was. Does this fact colour my opinion of Jeremy in such a way that I see a brutish monster, a deceiver in him? Suprisingly, no. All I see is a man struggling with his bisexuality in an awkward, unartful manner. It really is no new thing in the world for people to be able to have romantic feelings for multiple persons at the same time. Love cannot be ordered around and it can appear whether you are already married to someone or not. It is hurtful if you are an injured party to that, but unfortunately, it cannot really be prevented.

As to John, I don´t thing he would cheat on Mary while being married to her - he is too honorable for that. (Althrough, considering the legality of THAT marriage, it´s nil - in the eyes of the law, this marriage never came into being, since no Mary Morstan actually exist.) This fact still doesn´t change anything on the fact that John is emotionally involved with Sherlock. This feeling for Sherlock deepened through time so it didn´t prevent John from dating girlfriends at the beginning of their mutual relationship - and eventually Mary, who became involved with John while Sherlock was "dead". Still, John´s feelings for Sherlock exist even when he is married to Mary. I somehow don´t perceive John´s conduct as deception here. John was quite fair to all sides involved. It was the wretched timing of events that led him to this place in his love-life, not some flaws in his character. 

Just my opinion, of course! 

I think John did behave reasonably honourably to his girlfriends before (assuming he was genuinely attracted).   Those were casual relationships and he just wasn't that in to them.   I don't think he was attracted to Sherlock, but even if he was aware of an attraction to Sherlock at that point, it would not be dishonourable to have a casual relationship.   However, to have a serious relationship and to expect somebody to commit completely to you (and not just emotionally and sexually, but publicly and legally!) and even have a child with them, without giving them the full, extremely relevant information - definitely dishonourable. 

@lil Some people do deny John's attraction to women, so I'm trying to cover all angles . 

@Nakahara I'm aware of some of Jeremy Brett's history, but he's a real person who led a difficult life in a difficult environment ... I don't want to relate his situation to John's very different situation.    I wasn't trying to argue that it doesn't happen - of course not!  It's happened to people I know.  And I'm not saying that it makes somebody a brutish monster (quite a different thing from being dishonourable.  One could be an honourable brutish monster, I suppose? ).   But I am saying that it would affect my view of John, and I'm wondering how other people reconcile that.  He has his faults, but I didn't see him as dishonourable in that particular way.  He seems quite disapproving of Sherlock deceiving Janine, after all, even in a good cause.   I think he would definitely think it dishonourable if Sherlock (or somebody else) did it. 

Love maybe can't be prevented, but there are ways of dealing with it.   There was nothing compelling John to marry Mary.  It was his responsibility to either avoid Sherlock altogether (rather than include him so much in his life with Mary and the wedding - very cruel intentions considering his view of Mary at the time) if he really wanted Mary, or to be honest with Mary and cut the relationship off or at least put it on hold until things were sorted.   Marriage certainly wasn't the only option. 

Now, I don't think John feels that way about Sherlock, so I don't have that dilemma about his character.  But this is an example of how it would alter the story, and the characters for me.  It's not just an addon, an extension of what they already have, that doesn't change anything.  It changes a lot. 
 

Last edited by Liberty (October 3, 2014 6:30 pm)

Honestly, I have no problem whatsoever with John's moral choices. I am sure he is willing to love and care for Mary when he marries her. He wants stability in his life after all he has gone through (because I think Sherlock is talking bullshit in the 221B scene). The paradoxical thing is of course that he chooses the one woman who is causing him only more heartbreak and who betrays him in a  way Sherlock has never betrayed him. Keeping this in mind I do not mind at all that he marries her. Her betrayal is much worse IMO. 
There are lots and lots of novels and films about people marrying one person although being in love with another (as well). I think for many viewers this is not very shocking. 
 

It would be crass for All Creatures Great and Small, I guess. But even they showed unhappy marriages at times 

Harriet wrote:

It would be crass for All Creatures Great and Small, I guess. But even they showed unhappy marriages at times

It's possible they'll marry John off again.
But I personally hope they think: well we've done that now. 
Back to Baker Street for John,
But whether or not he starts dating again, it won't be with men.

Yes, again, I'm not saying that it doesn't happen (or saying that it has never happened in a film), just that doing something like that says something about the person doing it. The fact that other people do it doesn't it make it OK!  At that point, John doesn't know about Mary's betrayal, so it doesn't matter if her's is worse (in terms of what it means for John's character).    It's not shocking at all, just out of character (or so it seems to me). 

Just thinking about it personally - what if you were the person doing this?  Or the person being deceived?  Would it really feel trivial, just something that people do?    I know it wouldn't for me, at all.    It's very hard to imagine doing it to somebody, and if I imagine it, I think of hating myself for it.   If I found out I was the person being deceived, I would be devastated.   There's something particularly creepy (if John really was in love with Sherlock in that way) about involving Sherlock so much in the wedding.   How do you think it would make you feel if it turned out your husband had given centre stage to the person he really loves at your own wedding?   (I'm not talking about how Mary feels, but about how John might be expected to think she would feel!).  Interviewing your guests, making joint vows, etc? 

I know I don't want to think of John that way.  But I don't claim to have an special insight into his character.    I'm just surprised this isn't addressed.  (And it all becomes completely innocent if it's platonic). 

How do you know that for sure?