BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Fan Fiction Addicts General Round Table Discusion

tonnaree · September 17, 2014 7:39 pm

Basically the fic sat there and I shouted abuse.

"Sherlock's room is behind the kitchen!!!!!"

ancientsgate · September 18, 2014 1:28 am

tonnaree wrote:
Just got done wtih a fairly long fic. It was a good story but I was dissapointed in the ending. But that's not what I'm here to talk about. There was one major mistake that just kept being repeated over and over again. She had the layout of 221b totally wrong. John and Sherlock would be in the sitting room and talk about going "upstairs" to Sherlock's bedroom! The first time it happened I thought it might have just been a slip. But then they were in Sherlock's bedroom and talked about going DOWN to the sitting room. I know it's a little thing but it drove me crazy. It took me out of the story for a moment each time. /end rant/

Yes, lots of fan fic is writtten by people who don't actually watch the show it's based on. I think they get intrigued with the fan fic, read a bunch of it, and then write their own story. Absolutely *must* have an alpha/beta reader, plus we non-Brits need Brit pickers, too. I read a fic yesterday by a well-known author who had John flexing his shooting hand and looking at the callouses left there by his gun--- and it was his right hand! Sheesh, everyone knows that John (and his actor) are left-handed. A small thing, but stuff like that takes me out of the story and drives me a bit nuts, just as tonnaree said.

La Jolie · September 18, 2014 7:23 am

tonnaree wrote:
"Sherlock's room is behind the kitchen!!!!!"

And it's actually magically suspended in the air above Mrs Hudson't backyard!!!

Sheesh, people, how do you expect the fanfic writers to get it right when even the set designers don't?

That said, I bow to the awesome Arwel Jones & Co., and I totally agree that lack of canon compliance in these details totally throws me out of a fic, too

But I'd like to contest the view that you absolutely need a beta-reader. I think some writers manage just fine (or maybe even better) without them.

And as for Brit-Picking, since I prefer working without a beta-reader, I would find it very helpful if we could have a thread in here just for that purpose. I'd have reservations about inflicting a whole as-yet-unpublished fic of mine on a resident of the UK for the sole reason that they are and I'm not. But I often do have questions about little Britishisms that Wikipedia & Co. don't answer. It would be nice to have a place here just to pose a question like "How exactly do the ticket barriers on the Tube work" etc.

Schmiezi · September 19, 2014 4:40 am

La Jolie wrote:
But I'd like to contest the view that you absolutely need a beta-reader. I think some writers manage just fine (or maybe even better) without them.

First, you could say that there is a reason why professional writers have lectors. You simply can't avoid mistakes all the time, even as a native speaker.
And it doesn't hurt when someone else takes a look at your plot and our POV. Sometimes you are so involved in your fic that you don't realize that the readers are missing information that are obvious in your head, but not written down.

Second, I have recently stopped reading a fic with an interesting plot because the grammar mistakes were too much to ignore. The writer switched from present tense to simple past and back and made lots of spelling mistakes. I could no longer concentrate on the plot, so I stopped reading altogether.

As a reader, I want to read a fic and concentrate on the plot, not on the mistakes. As a writer, I want to post the best possible version of my fantasies, and for me, that always includes at least two beta readers.

ancientsgate · September 19, 2014 5:05 am

La Jolie wrote:
But I'd like to contest the view that you absolutely need a beta-reader. I think some writers manage just fine (or maybe even better) without them.

So your beta reader ends up saying, great job, I wouldn't change a thing! And the harm in doing that is exactly.... what? I think we can all learn from others. Plus I don't know about you authors, but after I read through what I write more than 2 or 3 times, I start to get blind to it. Repeated words can be a real bugaboo-- we often don't see them, but a good beta reader will spot them every time, and that's just a small example. And don't get me started on punctuation, especially dialogue punctuation. Few of us seem to know how to do that right. Another small example.

Also, some writers (not saying you, since I don't know you or your work, but I have beta-read for some who are like this) are not willing to do the extra work to fix things-- the "mistakes" that are spotted make them tired, and they just can't put in the additional time and effort to do the editing. For someone like that, then having a good editor (which is what a skilled beta reader is) is not necessary.

And as for Brit-picking, sorry, but IMO a complete read is necessary there, too, simply because we non-Brits can't "hear" what we've written the way a Brit could-- sure it sounds and looks right to us, that's why we wrote it that way. But a good Brit reader could point out things that sound foreign to their ears.

ancientsgate · September 19, 2014 5:13 am

Schmiezi wrote:
......... I have recently stopped reading a fic with an interesting plot because the grammar mistakes were too much to ignore. The writer switched from present tense to simple past and back and made lots of spelling mistakes. I could no longer concentrate on the plot, so I stopped reading altogether. As a reader, I want to read a fic and concentrate on the plot, not on the mistakes. As a writer, I want to post the best possible version of my fantasies, and for me, that always includes at least two beta readers.

I agree on all points. Like you, I also will stop reading if the writer can't spell, use quotation marks and commas correctly, doesn't know what a paragraph is for, and/or skips verb tenses back and forth all over the place. I imagine that a lot of such fics are written by very young writers, and I'm glad they're having fun and gaining experience, writing and posting, but I'm too busy to forge ahead with such an annoying read, and I don't care what the plot is or what the characters are doing.

I've done a lot of alpha/beta reading in another fandom, and it's a real education to try to help some authors. Some cannot be helped, but they're the exception; they lack the skills to make the corrections needed. Plus it's discouraging to them when you have to show them that their verb tenses are a mess, the story lacks a consistent POV, the characters aren't acting in a credible way, the sex scenes are unbelievable, etc.

La Jolie · September 19, 2014 8:34 pm

Oh, lovely! I've stirred up a hornet's nest, it seems.

I'd be the last person to defend people that can't do spelling, punctuation, tenses and such. My inner grammar Nazi is at least as bad as Sherlock's in TGG. But in my experience, these people are usually hopeless anyway. Or does any of you know of a writer that started out as one of those semi-illiterates and ended up writing breathtaking literary prose?

And as for content -

Schmiezi wrote:
So your beta reader ends up saying, great job, I wouldn't change a thing! And the harm in doing that is exactly.... what?

It's a waste of time?

And it's especially bad with writers that, like you said, can't be bothered to fix things. There are those that polish and polish and polish their writing and aren't afraid of editing stuff even after posting a fic if they feel that there are things that still need a last tweak (and another... and another...) but you can do that without a beta, too. And if you're not willing to do that, why inflict your wish-wash on a beta in the first place?

I think I'm biased and prejudiced because I've just never had a satisfying experience with beta reading yet, neither actively or passively. Maybe I would change my mind if I tried it again. But then, how do you find a beta that is really on your wave-length and that you can rely on to know their grammar and spelling better than you do yourself?

ancientsgate · September 19, 2014 11:19 pm

La Jolie wrote:
Oh, lovely! I've stirred up a hornet's nest, it seems.

Not as far as I'm concerned. The last few posts all just sound like lively discussion to me-- no one got stung! *smile*

I think I'm biased and prejudiced because I've just never had a satisfying experience with beta reading yet, neither actively or passively. Maybe I would change my mind if I tried it again. But then, how do you find a beta that is really on your wave-length and that you can rely on to know their grammar and spelling better than you do yourself?

And it could be that you really don't absolutely need one. I personally think everyone needs one, but there are authors who are very meticulous writers, who can get away without one. It's not a matter of a beta knowing their spelling and grammar better than you in a lot of cases-- it's just catching the small things, looking out for repeated words, perhaps reorganizing sentence structure to make things read a bit smoother, especially in dialogue. As for how to find someone, well, it's like a kind of friendship-- at first you have no reason to trust someone, but in time, you either will or you won't. You have to start somewhere.

Schmiezi · September 20, 2014 7:40 am

I need my betas for two reasons.

The very first step for me is always to send whatever I have written to Susi, who does the most important job of painting little smilies and hearts and tears next to the paragraphs to show me how they made her feel. I am stupidly insecure when it comes to my writing and really depend on that feedback.
But that mainly works so well because we both agree on what other fics we like and because we are touched by the same plot elements, I think.

The second step is my language of course. I am not a native speaker, and use to mess with tenses and prepositions. I think it's getting better, thanks to Davina who always told me WHY something was wrong and now thanks to tonnaree who is always willing to invest her free time for me.

But I am sure that with less positive, encouraging betas my opinion would be different. AG is right, finding a suitable beta is like finding a friend.

La Jolie · September 24, 2014 10:29 am

Schmiezi wrote:
AG is right, finding a suitable beta is like finding a friend.

Then maybe one day Mike Stamford will stumble upon the perfect beta reader for me, too.

Until then, my inner sociopath can go on believing that alone is what protects me, if it makes him happy.

Last edited by La Jolie (September 24, 2014 10:29 am)

Schmiezi · November 12, 2014 8:34 pm

Does one of you know something about Wordstrings / Katie Forsythe? I found a tweet saying that she will update All The Best And Brightest Creatures, but it is already more than a month old.
(https://twitter.com/wordstrings/status/519236509581721600)

Other than that, I couldn't find anything. I've been a bit concerned because the last update has been in August.

Harriet · November 12, 2014 9:07 pm

Oh, I didn't even know they were the same author?

tonnaree · November 12, 2014 9:26 pm

I saw a fic the other day that shipped Mycroft/Molly.
Just can't wrap my brain around that one.

Schmiezi · November 13, 2014 5:24 am

tonnaree wrote:
I saw a fic the other day that shipped Mycroft/Molly.
Just can't wrap my brain around that one.

What a strange pairing. Did you read it?

tonnaree · November 13, 2014 3:25 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
tonnaree wrote:
I saw a fic the other day that shipped Mycroft/Molly.
Just can't wrap my brain around that one.
What a strange pairing. Did you read it?

No. Didn't really appeal.

Pav · November 14, 2014 12:56 am

I came across this sentinel/guide thing while searching on AO3 and it got me curious (not enough to read anything). Does anyone know what this is about? Did anyone read it? Is this some new trend because alpha/omega is out?

ancientsgate · November 14, 2014 8:50 am

Pav wrote:
I came across this sentinel/guide thing while searching on AO3 and it got me curious (not enough to read anything). Does anyone know what this is about? Did anyone read it? Is this some new trend because alpha/omega is out?

There was a very popular TV show called The Sentinel about maybe 15 years ago, starring Richard Burgi and Garett Maggart. At imdb, the show's synopsis says <<After spending years in the Peruvian jungle during his tour in Army Special Forces, Cascade Police Department Detective James Ellison developed hyperactive senses, which came back to him five years after his return to the US. He can see people in darkened windows at night from two hundred yards, hear the music playing on the radio of the car he's chasing after he's lost sight of it, and can distinguish between wood and plastic after both have been in a three thousand degree fire. Blair Sandburg, a local anthropology student, tells Ellison that he is a "sentinel," who in ancient tribes would protect the village and seek out game using such hyperactive senses. Sandburg becomes Ellison's back-watcher and teacher of how to use his new powers as Ellison brings a whole new edge to the war on crime in Cascade, Washington.>>> There were probably 10,000 slash fics written about the Ellison-Sandburg pairing during the show's run and even afterward for a few years. The two actors had *chemistry* to the max, it was a great show, and the resulting fan fiction was superb. Anyway, maybe there are some emerging johnlock fics in the sentinel genre? I'd be intrigued to read some, if so.

Last edited by ancientsgate (November 14, 2014 8:52 am)

Pav · November 14, 2014 3:01 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Pav wrote:
I came across this sentinel/guide thing while searching on AO3 and it got me curious (not enough to read anything). Does anyone know what this is about? Did anyone read it? Is this some new trend because alpha/omega is out?
There was a very popular TV show called The Sentinel about maybe 15 years ago, starring Richard Burgi and Garett Maggart. At imdb, the show's synopsis says <<After spending years in the Peruvian jungle during his tour in Army Special Forces, Cascade Police Department Detective James Ellison developed hyperactive senses, which came back to him five years after his return to the US. He can see people in darkened windows at night from two hundred yards, hear the music playing on the radio of the car he's chasing after he's lost sight of it, and can distinguish between wood and plastic after both have been in a three thousand degree fire. Blair Sandburg, a local anthropology student, tells Ellison that he is a "sentinel," who in ancient tribes would protect the village and seek out game using such hyperactive senses. Sandburg becomes Ellison's back-watcher and teacher of how to use his new powers as Ellison brings a whole new edge to the war on crime in Cascade, Washington.>>> There were probably 10,000 slash fics written about the Ellison-Sandburg pairing during the show's run and even afterward for a few years. The two actors had *chemistry* to the max, it was a great show, and the resulting fan fiction was superb. Anyway, maybe there are some emerging johnlock fics in the sentinel genre? I'd be intrigued to read some, if so.

Thanks for explaining. I was actually talking about Johnlock fics. I don't have links but I'm sure you'll find them on AO3 if you search. I agree it looks intriguing, I might read some as well.

Wholocked · November 14, 2014 11:26 pm

Oh god I love that trope! There's quite a few sentinel/guide Johnlock AUs.

My favourite is the Secrets and Revelations series by Hisstah. But also this search combination should net you a few good ones too.

Schmiezi · November 22, 2014 6:48 pm

I have already written this down in another thread, but it fits here as well, I think.

When it comes to fix-it fics for S3, I think that letting Mary die in an accident is a rather unsatisfying way out. I want more fics that show John sending Mary packing.