Liberty wrote:

In the world of Sherlock, it's not expected for a man to have a woman on his side  .    (Quite the opposite - some people just assume he's gay).   There doesn't seem to be any pressure to put up a front.  John chooses to date.  He's clearly not pleased when Sherlock intrudes when he's trying to get off with Sarah.  He doesn't get anywhere with women mainly because of his life with Sherlock, not because they're just a front.  When Sherlock's away, he moves very quickly with Mary.

Yet Sherlock still takes place in our universe, where heterosexual marriages and heterosexual relationships are the norm and are taught to children through culture, so that the people authomatically await that the man will end with a woman. You pointed out yourself what a dire laws about homosexuality were valid not that far from our age in Scotland. John is 40 - he certainly remembers times when homosexuality was treated like a psychical illness and it could be one factor that prevents him from being willing to be labeled as gay (with all the connotations a gay stereotype plays in people´s mind).

Liberty wrote:

Sherlock is the central relationship in his life and gives him something that he doesn't get from girlfriends, but I don't think it's a sexual thing at all.  There's nothing to indicate that.  He doesn't dream about sex with Sherlock.

So if a young girl dreams about her beloved´s face and voice, it doesn´t mean she fancies him - she must envision sexual act to really be sure she has sexual desire concerning him. 

Oh, I don´t think it really works like that. Dr. Sigmund Freud would never be successful if dreams were that straightforward.

Liberty wrote:

If the Angelo scene is an advance, we've got to accept that he's aware of fancying Sherlock right from the beginning and has the confidence to ask, but then spends years only dating women, and not bothering to "test the water" ever again, despite what people here say are obvious signs from Sherlock.  It doesn't make sense.

John´s time with Sherlock in S1 and S2 encompasses a year and a half (so no years there). Half of that time is spent with: the fiasco with Irene Adler (where John is jealous as hell) and John stopping seeing his girlfriends altogether, growing closer together with Sherlock just before the disastrous TRF happens. It is only after that that he, wounded in his heart, finds Mary - but it is insinuated at the beggining of TEH that they are not long together yet. John had spent most of the hiatus grieving after Sherlock. The situation suddenly doesn´t look so in favor of John´s heterosexuality, does it?
 

I see the dream purely as Sherlock luring bored John back to his exciting adventures with Sherlock, away from the dull GP job.

I feel it's pushing it to say he doesn't relish Mary's presence...he can't help his nightmares or wishing for an exciitng job.

Last edited by besleybean (September 16, 2014 5:08 pm)

SusiGo wrote:

besleybean wrote:

I see the dream purely as Sherlock luring bored John back to his exciting adventures with Sherlock, away from the dull GP job.

And I see it differently. A matter of interpretation, I suppose. As is the fact that every time we see John in bed with Mary he is thinking or dreaming of Sherlock. 

Not only is he always dreaming about Sherlock, he also did shave for Sherlock! 

Why is this posted here?

It is not about the fact that he dates women but that none of his relationships seems to work, including his marriage. 
There is no hint whatsoever that John met Mary before or during TRF. It has always been made clear that she is a new character introduced in series 3 (theories of her as a sniper, Moriarty's assistant, etc. excluded). He only proposes once (strictly speaking we do not see his proposal at all) and this is at the restaurant. An attempt at proposal during which he talks about Sherlock again, but this just as an aside. 
So if you say that Sherlock is central to his life can give him something other people do not, this would mean that he probably cannot have a complete relationship ever with any woman. They would only be a substitute or fill a gap. 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 16, 2014 5:52 pm)

Liberty wrote:

I didn't say that people can't have non-sexual dreams about people they fancy, Nakahara, just that a non-sexual dream isn't proof that you fancy somebody.  You can dream about all sorts of people, not just people you fancy.  And if they're trying to show us that the dream is sexual, it would help to give more of a clue! 

But how do you establish that a dream is sexual? What are it´s defining features? Face and a voice of a beloved one and your first meeting that at the time fullfilled you with excitement is not enough? So what other things or symbolic images must it include to be seen as such?

Liberty wrote:

My point about how bad things were for gay rights not so long ago was partly about how much things have changed, and how the writers are showing that change in the series.   Is there ever a sign of anyone being homophobic?  None that I can think of.  Neither Sherlock nor John come across as homophobic.  It's just not an issue for them.   John certainly does have hangups, but that isn't one of them. 

Homophobia is one thing - the social expectations are another. If you see a TV trailer on a new rom-com what are your chances that it will be about gay, not hererosexual couple? The same with romantic books or Tv series - how many of them would feature gay couples? Harlequin novels being sold in the shops here and there - ever seen the one about gays? I guess not - the cultural depiction of a loving relationship still centers on a man-woman relationships in 99 cases out of 100. It is something stongly ingrained in our culture itself. And that´s what I was speaking about - that people authomatically await that a romantic relationship will take place between a man and a woman, not between two blokes. 
 

I watch a TV show and see what relationships they show us..

But Susi, Mark isn't reflecting on Canon, when he writes his brilliant Lucifer  Box trilogy.

Last edited by besleybean (September 16, 2014 6:20 pm)

besleybean wrote:

Why is this posted here?

Sorry, I think I started it, asking what the official song was!

SusiGo wrote:

It is not about the fact that he dates women but that none of his relationships seems to work, including his marriage. 
There is no hint whatsoever that John met Mary before or during TRF. It has always been made clear that she is a new character introduced in series 3 (theories of her as a sniper, Moriarty's assistant, etc. excluded). He only proposes once (strictly speaking we do not see his proposal at all) and this is at the restaurant. An attempt at proposal during which he talks about Sherlock again, but this just as an aside.

That was my fault, mistyping - I meant a few months before TEH.  I'll go back and correct, thanks!  I think there are reasons for his relationships working that are due to issues outside his sexuality.  Being in the army, it might have been difficult.  Then he's straight into living with Sherlock and being caught up in that.  Then he's grieving.  The trouble is that if they showed a relationship that worked, to the extent that he didn't see Sherlock (he moved away, or whatever), there wouldn't be a story - there'd be no Holmes and Watson.   I can see it happening for maybe an episode, but he's always going to have to fit a relationship around Sherlock.  So I don't think the message is "we're showing John failing at relationships because he's not attracted to women" - it's not that, it's because he needs to be with Sherlock.  Sherlock is always going to be central.  And to make that scenario work, they've given a reason for John to need him (a reason which isn't sexual).

So if you say that Sherlock is central to his life can give him something other people do not, this would mean that he probably cannot have a complete relationship ever with any woman. They would only be a substitute or fill a gap. 

I think that's the way it is and will continue.  I don't think we're going to see him in a comfortable, fulfilled relationship with a woman, and I don't think he's ever going to be out of Sherlock's life in any way.  But that's not because he fancies Sherlock and doesn't fancy women. 

besleybean wrote:

Sherlock gives John adventure, he quite obviously doesn't give him what Mary obviously does.

Considering she's pregnant, yes .  I don't think it's going to work out with Mary (either she's going to die or be the next big villain or both, I think), but I think John will continue to be attracted to women in a sexual way (although we don't necessarily need to see that on screen now that it's established).

nakahara wrote:

But how do you establish that a dream is sexual? What are it´s defining features? Face and a voice of a beloved one and your first meeting that at the time fullfilled you with excitement is not enough? So what other things or symbolic images must it include to be seen as such?

To tell the audience that it's sexual - a kiss would be enough, it doesn't need to be explicit.  Actually, that would be some scene, to start of S4 with them kissing, and us then to find out it's John dreaming .... or maybe not.  Face and voice aren't enough to let us know, unless the voice was whispering things like "because I took your pulse", etc.

Homophobia is one thing - the social expectations are another. If you see a TV trailer on a new rom-com what are your chances that it will be about gay, not hererosexual couple? The same with romantic books or Tv series - how many of them would feature gay couples? Harlequin novels being sold in the shops here and there - ever seen the one about gays? I guess not - the cultural depiction of a loving relationship still centers on a man-woman relationships in 99 cases out of 100. It is something stongly ingrained in our culture itself. And that´s what I was speaking about - that people authomatically await that a romantic relationship will take place between a man and a woman, not between two blokes. 
 

Yes, there are still battles to be won (for other minority groups too), but I don't think that's what they're showing on the show.  (Mark Gatiss is older than John, but doesn't feel the need to date women to hide his sexuality - but he will have seen the changes for the better which I think the show reflects).  There could be more gay characters on the show, but at least it's acknowledged - Harry, the comments, one of the cases in the blog, etc. 

(Btw, in his Lucifer Box novels Mark Gatiss plays with such expectations by presenting a womanising hero who halfway into the first novel changes over to hot sex with a guy. Just saying.)

I haven't read the novel, but is it possible that he's just showing an attraction to both men and women, rather than that he's using women to disguise his attraction to men?   In John's case, we've only seen sexual relationships with women - it would just have needed him to date one guy to show he was attracted to both.

Last edited by Liberty (September 21, 2014 7:52 pm)

besleybean wrote:

Why is this posted here?

If you mean the video I was responding to a question from Liberty.