I think Torchwood was Russell T Davies, not Moftiss?  Similarly exotic and compelling character though, so I can see where you're coming from.   Who wouldn't fall for Jack Harkness or Sherlock?

Sherlock includes Mrs Hudson in the people John is attracted to.  To clarify, I was meaning sexually attracted in my earlier post.  Obviously John is attracted to Sherlock right from the beginning because he's exciting, charismatic, dangerous, etc.   I don't think he's trying to make an advance when he mentions the cheekbones.  He's aware of Sherlock's effect and it's part mocking, part admiring, I think. 

Yes, Irene does think Sherlock is attracted to her, and as she is meant to be extremely good at judging what men like, surely she has to be right?  I mean, she'd be unlikely to be wrong.  (Plus there's the other evidence). 

Liberty wrote:

I think Torchwood was Russell T Davies, not Moftiss?  Similarly exotic and compelling character though, so I can see where you're coming from.   Who wouldn't fall for Jack Harkness or Sherlock?

Sherlock includes Mrs Hudson in the people John is attracted to.  To clarify, I was meaning sexually attracted in my earlier post.  Obviously John is attracted to Sherlock right from the beginning because he's exciting, charismatic, dangerous, etc.   I don't think he's trying to make an advance when he mentions the cheekbones.  He's aware of Sherlock's effect and it's part mocking, part admiring, I think. 

Yes, Irene does think Sherlock is attracted to her, and as she is meant to be extremely good at judging what men like, surely she has to be right?  I mean, she'd be unlikely to be wrong.  (Plus there's the other evidence). 

Irene also says those immortal words:

JOHN: We are not a couple.
IRENE: Yes, you are.

Yes, she is unlikely to be wrong. 
 

Exactly, besley. Most of the time, women are better with these matters anyway.

nakahara wrote:

Irene of the BBC version herself says that she is gay - that she is only attracted to women. Of course, we can pretend that the Sherlock is exception to the rule. But then we must admit that it can go both ways - "straight" Sherlock and John can be attracted to each other if it´s OK for gay Irene to be attracted to one of them.

I don't think it's 100% clear that she's gay, partly because so much of what she does is manipulation.  That's how she operates.  I think the only sexual relationship she had that we know of (outside of work) was the story about her breaking up a couple by sleeping with both parties - can't remember if we were told whether they were an opposite-sex couple of not.  Although again, she may have been using sex for manipulation.  But she's clearly attracted to Sherlock, whether she's gay or not.  I think that's made very explicit (he took her pulse, Sherlocked, etc.) in a way that it never is with Sherlock or John.  I'm not saying it's not OK for John or Sherlock to fall for each other - just that we don't see that clear evidence that we see with Irene.

Also, Irene is a dominatrix. When she speaks about her attraction to Sherlock it´s entirely possible that she means the usual stuff she wants to do when she interacts with men - that she only wishes to spank Sherlock and see him humiliated under her whip, not that she wants to have a loving relationship with him.

Being a dominatrix is her job and might have nothing to do with her personal sexual tastes.  Of course, it's quite possible that her personal tastes do lean in that direction.   Spanking and humiliation are often part of loving relationships.  "Sherlocked" gives away that she's not just thinking of some kinky play - she's infatuated, to the extent that she'll take a risk with her life just to use his name on her phone.  No wonder it confirms for Sherlock that love is a weakness!

Yes, Sherlock is certainly fascinated and attracted by her intelligence and cunningness. Yet he is fascinated by Moriarty almost the same way in TRF (althrough he doesn´t have the chance to take his pulse.) 

Should we conclude from this that:
Men whom Sherlock is attracted to: Moriarty?

It would be possible by the same logic.

Where do you see Sherlock being sexually attracted to Moriarty, though?  I don't see it. (I can possibly see Moriarty being sexually attracted to Sherlock, but I'm not entirely sure about that).

But that is not needed because we can happily conclude from what we actually see in the show that:
Men whom Sherlock is attracted to: John

It´s obviously visible in the moments like these:

http://rebloggy.com/post/sherlock-martin-freeman-sherlock-holmes-benedict-cumberbatch-johnlock/72444597712

They were not actually speaking about crime-solving here - Janine was trying to seduce him. Yet his eyes and heart were only glued to John. And there are plenty of moments like these in the show - one does not need to conjure them up. While the actual romance between Sherlock and Irene was... what exactly? He didn´t respond to her texts. He refused her offer to "dinner". He was alone in the flat with her and he was speaking to her as if she was John. Not very glamorous relationship, in my opinion. 

I don't think it is obviously visible, though.  In that link, he's going to look at John because Janine is asking if he has a vacancy (John's vacancy, or otherwise).  But in general, I think we're all agreed that John is Sherlock's central relationship, his first close relationship since childhood, that he loves him, admires him, that they have a special bond, etc.   Because they have such a special friendship, it's difficult to pick out anything that says it's something different to the love that Sherlock feels anyway.  Is he looking at John because he loves him (as his friend) or because he's sexually attracted to him?  I think it needs something more explicit to prove sexual attraction.  I haven't seen anything like that ... yet . 

The romantic relationship between Sherlock and Irene is one that was never consummated (because of Sherlock's deliberate repression).  (Or some people think it was consummated off screen - I'm not so sure).  He's not trying to have sex with her (that we see), but he definitely feels something for her - that's why he almost loses the game. 

(There are lots of clues, although my absolute favourite bit of evidence, which I know probably isn't admissable because it's to do with lighting and whatnot, is that his pupils are dilated when he tells her that he knows she's fallen for him because her pupils are dilated). 

Irene also says those immortal words:

JOHN: We are not a couple.
IRENE: Yes, you are.

They kind of are, aren't they?  But I don't think she means that they are actually in a sexual relationship.  I think she's talking about their relationship as it is. 

Goodness, this is a long post.  Sorry.
 

Last edited by Liberty (September 14, 2014 9:22 pm)

@silverblaze: It was me who wrote that in the first place - and yes I´m quite sure Mark said that. I was surely not intending to troll the thread, I just think that Mycroft´s comment on the "happy announcement" was a joke which has it´s foundation in him judging male relationships from this angle. Sorry if that sounded sarcastic or demeaning, it surely wasn´t meant that way.

nakahara wrote:

Yes, Sherlock is certainly fascinated and attracted by her intelligence and cunningness. Yet he is fascinated by Moriarty almost the same way in TRF (althrough he doesn´t have the chance to take his pulse.) 

Should we conclude from this that:
Men whom Sherlock is attracted to: Moriarty?

It would be possible by the same logic.

Moriarty neither makes Sherlock stutter, nor does his death lead to a "danger night" and visible grief. He also didn´t keep the apple in which he engraved his message, so.. no. I don´t think Sherlock is attracted to Moriarty.  Although he did enjoy the game before people were actually dying..

I think it´s nearly impossible to agree on interpretations of people´s behaviour, because everyone made their unique experiences. I for one have a close friend with whom I banter all the time, I comment on her appearance, we went out of our ways for each other, both of us get jealous when there are new exciting people on the horizon.. you get the picture. She moves away now and while I´m happy for her (because she´s been looking for a house for ages) I feel like I might leave the housewarming-party a little early.. and yet no thought of a kiss or touch has ever crossed my mind. So that´s where I´m coming from when I see John´s and Sherlock´s relationship.
 

Liberty wrote:

I think Torchwood was Russell T Davies, not Moftiss?  Similarly exotic and compelling character though, so I can see where you're coming from.   Who wouldn't fall for Jack Harkness or Sherlock? . 

But didn't Moffat create the character John Harkness on Dr. Who first?  Torchwood was a spin off.

 

Liberty wrote:

I don't think it's 100% clear that she's gay, partly because so much of what she does is manipulation.  That's how she operates.  I think the only sexual relationship she had that we know of (outside of work) was the story about her breaking up a couple by sleeping with both parties - can't remember if we were told whether they were an opposite-sex couple of not.  Although again, she may have been using sex for manipulation.  But she's clearly attracted to Sherlock, whether she's gay or not.  I think that's made very explicit (he took her pulse, Sherlocked, etc.) in a way that it never is with Sherlock or John.  I'm not saying it's not OK for John or Sherlock to fall for each other - just that we don't see that clear evidence that we see with Irene.

 

She definitely sleeps with women - with the young royal mentioned in the story (allegedly some racy photos of her and that girl exist, in very promising situations) and certainly with her maid or secretary, Kate (Irene herself mentions that Kate often ends up unconscious after that). She probably just spanks men - even when she speaks with Sherlock, she only mentions how gladly she would slap him, beat him until he shouted for mercy and the like. I don´t think she is shamming up when she mentions that she´s gay and I have a feeling she likes her position as a dominatrix.

But I have no problem admitting that she is attracted to Sherlock. I just don´t see Sherlock reciprociating her feelings.

Liberty wrote:

Where do you see Sherlock being sexually attracted to Moriarty, though?  I don't see it. (I can possibly see Moriarty being sexually attracted to Sherlock, but I'm not entirely sure about that).

 

Exactly. Sherlock´s fascination with Moriarty does not neccessarily mean he feels sexual attraction to him. I see the same thing when I look at Sherlock - Irene interactions: fascination with an intelligent enemy, surprise at the audacity and provocativeness of the woman, shyness from the highly unusual, sexually laden encounter that´s out of the area of Sherlock´s experience... but not the sexual attraction and the willingness to start a relationship.

Liberty wrote:

I don't think it is obviously visible, though.  In that link, he's going to look at John because Janine is asking if he has a vacancy (John's vacancy, or otherwise).  But in general, I think we're all agreed that John is Sherlock's central relationship, his first close relationship since childhood, that he loves him, admires him, that they have a special bond, etc.   Because they have such a special friendship, it's difficult to pick out anything that says it's something different to the love that Sherlock feels anyway.  Is he looking at John because he loves him (as his friend) or because he's sexually attracted to him?  I think it needs something more explicit to prove sexual attraction.  I haven't seen anything like that ... yet . 

The romantic relationship between Sherlock and Irene is one that was never consummated (because of Sherlock's deliberate repression).  (Or some people think it was consummated off screen - I'm not so sure).  He's not trying to have sex with her (that we see), but he definitely feels something for her - that's why he almost loses the game. 

(There are lots of clues, although my absolute favourite bit of evidence, which I know probably isn't admissable because it's to do with lighting and whatnot, is that his pupils are dilated when he tells her that he knows she's fallen for him because her pupils are dilated).

 

So Sherlock´s pining looks at John´s chair and John himself at his wedding, Sherlock´s lovely wedding speech where he confessed his feelings to John in more certain terms than he ever did when he spoke with Irene, Sherlock´s obvious jealousy at Major Sholto, Sherlock´s care about John´s attractiveness (he mocks his moustache thrice), his willingness to pull John out of the fire and to come from the dead for his sake - that all doesn´t count as the proof of love. But a slight dilation of pupils in a dark room is a definite proof of sexual attraction... 

Well, not in my eyes. For me, Sherlock´s actions clearly indicate John´s importance to him and his dedication to John. I fail to see anything that would signify the same depth of feelings of Sherlock to Irene. In my opinion, if Sherlock ever was attracted to Irene, that´s all that it was - a slight attraction. While the thing that connects him to John is a deep, selfless love.

Liberty wrote:

They kind of are, aren't they?  But I don't think she means that they are actually in a sexual relationship.  I think she's talking about their relationship as it is. 
 

But note that they speak about sexual relationship in their entire conversation: John claiming that he is not gay, she countering tha she is "and look at us both"... and suddenly her next sentence does not concern sexual relationship, but only friendship? No, I don´t think so - I think that her claim that they are a couple was just a continuation of their conversation and that yes, she insinuated the sexual attraction between them.
 

Oh I disagree.
I mean, not with the hot part, that goes without saying...
But John doesn't want him THAT way.

nakahara wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I don't think it's 100% clear that she's gay, partly because so much of what she does is manipulation.  That's how she operates.  I think the only sexual relationship she had that we know of (outside of work) was the story about her breaking up a couple by sleeping with both parties - can't remember if we were told whether they were an opposite-sex couple of not.  Although again, she may have been using sex for manipulation.  But she's clearly attracted to Sherlock, whether she's gay or not.  I think that's made very explicit (he took her pulse, Sherlocked, etc.) in a way that it never is with Sherlock or John.  I'm not saying it's not OK for John or Sherlock to fall for each other - just that we don't see that clear evidence that we see with Irene.

She definitely sleeps with women - with the young royal mentioned in the story (allegedly some racy photos of her and that girl exist, in very promising situations) and certainly with her maid or secretary, Kate (Irene herself mentions that Kate often ends up unconscious after that). She probably just spanks men - even when she speaks with Sherlock, she only mentions how gladly she would slap him, beat him until he shouted for mercy and the like. I don´t think she is shamming up when she mentions that she´s gay and I have a feeling she likes her position as a dominatrix.

But I have no problem admitting that she is attracted to Sherlock. I just don´t see Sherlock reciprociating her feelings.

Liberty wrote:

Where do you see Sherlock being sexually attracted to Moriarty, though?  I don't see it. (I can possibly see Moriarty being sexually attracted to Sherlock, but I'm not entirely sure about that).

 

Exactly. Sherlock´s fascination with Moriarty does not neccessarily mean he feels sexual attraction to him. I see the same thing when I look at Sherlock - Irene interactions: fascination with an intelligent enemy, surprise at the audacity and provocativeness of the woman, shyness from the highly unusual, sexually laden encounter that´s out of the area of Sherlock´s experience... but not the sexual attraction and the willingness to start a relationship.

Liberty wrote:

I don't think it is obviously visible, though.  In that link, he's going to look at John because Janine is asking if he has a vacancy (John's vacancy, or otherwise).  But in general, I think we're all agreed that John is Sherlock's central relationship, his first close relationship since childhood, that he loves him, admires him, that they have a special bond, etc.   Because they have such a special friendship, it's difficult to pick out anything that says it's something different to the love that Sherlock feels anyway.  Is he looking at John because he loves him (as his friend) or because he's sexually attracted to him?  I think it needs something more explicit to prove sexual attraction.  I haven't seen anything like that ... yet . 

The romantic relationship between Sherlock and Irene is one that was never consummated (because of Sherlock's deliberate repression).  (Or some people think it was consummated off screen - I'm not so sure).  He's not trying to have sex with her (that we see), but he definitely feels something for her - that's why he almost loses the game. 

(There are lots of clues, although my absolute favourite bit of evidence, which I know probably isn't admissable because it's to do with lighting and whatnot, is that his pupils are dilated when he tells her that he knows she's fallen for him because her pupils are dilated).

 

So Sherlock´s pining looks at John´s chair and John himself at his wedding, Sherlock´s lovely wedding speech where he confessed his feelings to John in more certain terms than he ever did when he spoke with Irene, Sherlock´s obvious jealousy at Major Sholto, Sherlock´s care about John´s attractiveness (he mocks his moustache thrice), his willingness to pull John out of the fire and to come from the dead for his sake - that all doesn´t count as the proof of love. But a slight dilation of pupils in a dark room is a definite proof of sexual attraction... 

Well, not in my eyes. For me, Sherlock´s actions clearly indicate John´s importance to him and his dedication to John. I fail to see anything that would signify the same depth of feelings of Sherlock to Irene. In my opinion, if Sherlock ever was attracted to Irene, that´s all that it was - a slight attraction. While the thing that connects him to John is a deep, selfless love.

Liberty wrote:

They kind of are, aren't they?  But I don't think she means that they are actually in a sexual relationship.  I think she's talking about their relationship as it is. 
 

But note that they speak about sexual relationship in their entire conversation: John claiming that he is not gay, she countering tha she is "and look at us both"... and suddenly her next sentence does not concern sexual relationship, but only friendship? No, I don´t think so - I think that her claim that they are a couple was just a continuation of their conversation and that yes, she insinuated the sexual attraction between them.
 

Thank you, nakahara, for putting everything I think and feel so clearly and logically into words. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 15, 2014 6:40 am)