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September 10, 2014 6:14 pm  #121


Re: Mary's Choice

Harriet, I've got some scientific theories for your. 

I've got a background in psychology and programming is not a term that is used, as far as I'm aware. It's a sensationalist word without much meaning IMHO, I don't think there's a definition for it that makes sense. 

Conditioning: there's classical conditioning, (pavlovian conditioning) and operant conditioning (Skinner's doves). It's a term that stems from behaviourism so it doesn't really inform us how the learning process works. In common language, conditioning is referred to as an uconscious or semiconscious process, for example, doctors can condition themselves not to be disgusted by the conditions the need to treat, in classical conditioning terms that's called desensitisation. The learning of automatic skills (like physical skills) are also sometimes called conditioning. Drilling procedures would also fall under that type of learning, the skill becomes semiconscious, like a reflex. That's why I'm kinda excusing Mary, she had learned a procedure as a reflex, namely killing the witness, and only at the last moment she thought of something else. It's not a high level type of decision making. The training with agressive music is also a form of classical conditioning, the feeling of agression and excitements is coupled to the images. 

The creepy mind control kind of training that Nakahara is speaking of is also studied in psychology: it's all based on normal group influence and social learning, only brought to extremes. Propaganda can increase ingroup outgroup bias, groupthink, the halo effect, group coherence, etcetera. That's the dehumanisation. If you're interested you can google those terms and wikipedia will show you many similar phenomena too. Also interesting to google is the Milgram experiment and the Ash line experiment. Derren Brown once did an illustration of the Milgram experiment in one of his shows, you can probably find it on youtube. 

That's all what I could think of right now off the top of my head. I once had a fascinations for cults and how they control people so if you have more specific questions i can probably answer them too. 

 

September 10, 2014 6:46 pm  #122


Re: Mary's Choice

Thank you very much for this clarification. While I don't agree with your particular conclusion about Mary, your explanations seem to make a lot of sense.
So would you say there is conditioning that fully determinates one's actions?
Like, when you are talking about reflexes, I thought there is no way to consciously influence a reflex.
Am I wrong with this, when you are then referring to an at least low level of decision making?


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 10, 2014 8:05 pm  #123


Re: Mary's Choice

No, I don't mean reflexes as in spinal cord reflexes, I mean reflexes as in overlearned automatic actions. For example changing gear when driving, when you first learn it you have to be very conscious of what you're doing but when you're experienced you hardly even notice that you're changing gear when you're driving. Of course it's still possible to do this consciously as well. 

Whether there's conditioning that completely determines a person's behaviour, I don't think so but I do believe it can have a big influence. If you want to see a dramatic example of this, watch Derren Brown's The Heist, I think it's still on youtube. In that program he links some specific stimuli to feelings of excitement and power and later uses that to influence people to commit a crime. Derren often uses trickery but in this case I believe the process they're showing was the real process. 

So if Mary was conditioned to kill in that specific situation then every fibre of her being would have shouted 'kill' and she'd have needed all her mental energy to not kill and come up with an alternative solution in a few seconds. Hardly the circumstances that breed great decision making. 

 

September 10, 2014 8:19 pm  #124


Re: Mary's Choice

Again, thanks! Question resolved .  (The Heist - I took a detour via Wikipedia, very interesting.)

What I don't buy now is that the situation Mary was in with Sherlock could be one that would trigger that kind of reaction. However, that is a different issue.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 10, 2014 8:46 pm  #125


Re: Mary's Choice

Harriet wrote:

What I don't buy now is that the situation Mary was in with Sherlock could be one that would trigger that kind of reaction. However, that is a different issue.

Why not?

The woman that probably killed dozens of "targets" and unwanted witnesses of her acts in the same manner wants to repeat her old gig with CAM. A new unwanted wittness walks on her during that action and what´s more - he could speak about the crime to her husband. So what would she do? I fully believe her first thought would be to shoot him and get rid of an obstacle in the way she was taught to during her training/conditioning.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

September 10, 2014 8:49 pm  #126


Re: Mary's Choice

Then she would have just done it without a single word.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 10, 2014 9:09 pm  #127


Re: Mary's Choice

Harriet wrote:

Then she would have just done it without a single word.

Who knows?

While I think Mary was never Sherlock´s friend, he was still a good acquaintance of her and intelectually, she knew that his loss would be devastating to her husband. Maybe her words were the effort to vindicate the deed and make it justify in her own eyes - and that´s why she asked Sherlock not to take any step further? So she could pretend that he was himself guilty for his death - because he didn´t listened to her?

People can rationalise their behaviour that way when they intelectually know they are doing the wrong thing, IMHO.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

September 10, 2014 9:20 pm  #128


Re: Mary's Choice

And as soon as they rationalise, they are already beyond conditioning. That's what I'm saying.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 10, 2014 9:21 pm  #129


Re: Mary's Choice

Harriet wrote:

And as soon as they rationalise, they are already beyond conditioning. That's what I'm saying.

Maybe.
I won´t pretend that I´m an expert on such stuff. It just seems plausible to me.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

September 10, 2014 9:58 pm  #130


Re: Mary's Choice

I don't think it's likely that Mary is some kind of MK Ultra Blackwater alphabet agency assassin reflex type killer bot....

Highly trained as SH said and a Lethal killer nurse..as MG said, yes.

She told us why she shot Sherlock...because he would tell John..no doubt she ran various other choices first..but thats the one she chose . Likely it was an easier choice for her..due to her past leaving her more desensitised to cold blooded murder than us normal folks.

Sherlock blah'd a load to John because like Mary..he won't allow John to be broken.

I don't think the show will revisit this in the future in a serious way.
I actually think there is a lot of evidence in the show that Mary has done a lot of  bad things and generally been a bad person and it's going to be difficult to whitewash or romanticise her actions in a better light.

That she shot a man to not quite death and then threatened and was ready to do it again and finish the job...all to cover up her life of lies and keep her lover...well maybe understandable....a bit ..but it's never gonna look good is it..

Last edited by lil (September 10, 2014 10:00 pm)

 

September 10, 2014 10:07 pm  #131


Re: Mary's Choice

lil wrote:

I don't think it's likely that Mary is some kind of MK Ultra Blackwater alphabet agency assassin reflex type killer bot....

Thumbs up! 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 10, 2014 10:12 pm  #132


Re: Mary's Choice

lil wrote:

 Likely it was an easier choice for her..due to her past leaving her more desensitised to cold blooded murder than us normal folks.

But that´s exactly what I was talking about.

That the woman was being desensitised by her training and thus wouldn´t think twice about killing a person - even if said person was meant to be her friend. Not that she is some kind of robot unaware about her actions.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

September 10, 2014 10:46 pm  #133


Re: Mary's Choice

Agree!@naka...she was in control..because she has been desensitised ..she wasn't brainwashed or controlled or programmed or panicked ...to shoot without choice .

It was her decision.

Dr's and serial killers act the same way over blood and broken bodies..they are desensitised to it...thats why they can ignore the gore..thats why SH called it surgery.
He realised/deduced Mary was used to / had been a killer before.

Last edited by lil (September 10, 2014 11:11 pm)

 

September 10, 2014 11:06 pm  #134


Re: Mary's Choice

lil wrote:

Agree!@naka...she was in control..because she has been desensitised ..she wasn't brainwashed or controlled or programmed or panicked ...to shoot without choice .

It was her decision.

Dr's and serial killers act the same way over blood and broken bodies..they are desensitised to it...thats why they can ignore the gore..thats why SH called it surgery.
He realised/deduced Mary was used to / had been a killer before.

We actually speak about the same thing. 

I was not saying she is somehow absoluted from her guilt because she had that kind of training (or what is the correct term for preparation of such killing human machines) or that she is somehow not aware of what she is doing. She chose her "profession" herself and because she didn´t stop there but went "freelance", it´s obvious she acted according to her own will. Maybe even enjoyed yourself.

I was just trying to point out why she is so emotionally cold that she can shoot Sherlock so easily and cold-bloodedly, not being swayed by compassion. 

Because she was make insensitive to such carnage by her "training" (sorry for the perhaps incorrect term). You just stated that yourself. 

(And I guess the real life Blackwater scum are probably just like that - you wouldn´t say that they are killing people out of fun if you just met them by chance, while they act as a civilians in their own homecountry. They are certainly not stumbling down the street like zombies, acting on reflexes and unaware of they own selves, despite having the same training/brainwashing/whatever.)

 
 

Last edited by nakahara (September 10, 2014 11:06 pm)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

September 10, 2014 11:21 pm  #135


Re: Mary's Choice

Quite so.

SH surgery comment gives Mary the benefit of the doubt..he assumes Mary goes in the Dr category...killing as part of a governments assumed greater good..
Yet @ Christmas that doubt is taken away..freelance..for money..and as insinuated in part for the thrill...moving her more into serial killer category...Naugty Girl...

It's all very deliciously dark already imo....

 

September 11, 2014 5:25 am  #136


Re: Mary's Choice

Yes, and she says that John won't love her if he sees what's on the memory stick.  Not that he won't love her because she's an assassin and almost killed his friend - he already knows that.  But because there's worse stuff that he doesn't know.

 

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