BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Violence at the reunion

tobeornot221b · September 8, 2014 6:58 pm

nakahara wrote:
John was probably the only exception being safe from her.

Yes, but only because she did not have to make a dramatic devil/deep blue sea decision.
I don't know what she would have done in case there had been the need to decide for/against John in order to protect her selfish self.

besleybean · September 8, 2014 7:00 pm

Will we find out next time?!

Schmiezi · September 8, 2014 7:01 pm

Hopefully yes.

Liberty · September 8, 2014 7:08 pm

nakahara wrote:
Just as Zatoichi pointed above, Mary is not only dangerous because of what she could do but also because of who she is. People are after her and if someone from her past recognises her, then not only her but John and his child will be endangered as well. It´s better for John to be prepared for that.

But that has to be weighed up against John (and Mary!) being more at risk if he knows. And it doesn't seem to be urgent. After all, Sherlock doesn't try to get Mary's files from Magnusson until Christmas. So what drives Sherlock out of hospital is something else.

Also, outing Mary´s secret to John was the best way for Sherlock how to protect himself as well. Because after he told everything to her husband, he took all Mary´s motivation for killing him. The worse already happened, the cat was out of the bag - what purpose would it have to go after Sherlock now? It would be meaningless. What´s more - anything would happen to Sherlock now and John would be sure that Mary was behind this. And he would hate her with a vengeance, probably giving her to Mycroft... Mary would not self-destruct in this manner.

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make. It completely makes sense for Sherlock to urgently tell John and reconcile him with Mary to save himself, not John. It's the urgency that makes me feel he has to be protecting himself. There was a good chance that Mary would kill him in hospital (easy enough for her to find a subtle way, as a nurse). He already knows that Mary will kill him to stop John knowing. So risking his life to get out and stop her urgently, isn't so strange.

He may think he's protecting John too (although I don't think it actually protects John to know. Maybe in the ways you mention, but in other ways it puts him more at risk). But the urgency has to be to save himself, I think. Which makes me feel much better about the whole thing, and I need to rewatch with that in mind (at which point, I'll probably change my mind again! I still feel there's something I'm missing).

Liberty · September 8, 2014 7:27 pm

La Jolie wrote:
Liberty, I agree with you that Sherlock was saving himself as much as he was saving John and Mary by setting the trap and revealing her true self to John. He certainly wasn't safe (again, from his POV) as long as he was the only one who knew who shot him. But if he really wanted to put himself first, why not call Lestrade or Mycroft or whoever else would have had the power to neutralise Mary and place Sherlock under 24/7 protection? He could easily have done that. But he didn't, firstly because he's Sherlock and he always wants to play the game according to his own rules, and secondly also because he didn't want to be safe at the expense of John's utter ruin (which is what exposing Mary to the authorities would have amounted to). So it's really both about himself and John - he's killing two birds with one stone. And because it was also about John he had to do it in this highly dramatic and insanely unhealthy way.

Talking about this scene in 221b, has anyone realised that the three of them are conducting this discussion while Mary (presumably) still has a loaded gun in her pocket/handbag? That took some nerve, didn't it? Almost in the same league as scratching the back of your head with a loaded gun in TGG...

I hadn't thought about the gun, to be honest. I suppose it's unlikely that she'd shoot because she'd risk losing John. I just thought it was odd that Mary had the memory stick on her person (why would she have needed to go meet/kill Sherlock?).

He does seem focused on getting John to continue his relationship with Mary, rather than keeping John safe. (As you say, getting Mycroft involved could keep both of them safe). Mary's "I will never let that happen", I took to mean John knowing about her secret, but it also could mean John leaving her ... which is a lot more sinister. But if Sherlock thought Mary was such a risk to John, he wouldn't want them together (might as well let Magnusson do his worst). So yes, he seems to want them to stay together partly for John's sake. And his vow, I suppose. He does give John the chance to make his own judgment, and it's John's choice to keep Mary's secret (even from himself in part).

silverblaze · September 8, 2014 7:35 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
The reason why he helped her, I think, is because she saved him.
I am having problems with seeing Mary's actions as "saving Sherlock". How, by only shooting him a little? I mean, it's a bit like starting a fire and then "saving" everyone by calling the fire department.

Yes, and that's how he knew she was still on his side. What's so mysterious about that? The point is that in the few seconds after he was shot he wouldn't have had time to analyze and gather information, so at that point he still believed John was in danger. Remember that he also didn't know that she was letting him live. That changed after she showed him how well she could shoot, convincing him that it wasn't a mistake that he was still alive. That is why he tells John to trust her later on.

Schmiezi · September 8, 2014 7:37 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
The reason why he helped her, I think, is because she saved him.
I am having problems with seeing Mary's actions as "saving Sherlock". How, by only shooting him a little? I mean, it's a bit like starting a fire and then "saving" everyone by calling the fire department.
Yes, and that's how he knew she was still on his side. What's so mysterious about that?

The point is that had she refrained from shooting him at all, he would not have been in need for her "help".

nakahara · September 8, 2014 7:41 pm

Liberty wrote:
Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make. It completely makes sense for Sherlock to urgently tell John and reconcile him with Mary to save himself, not John. It's the urgency that makes me feel he has to be protecting himself. There was a good chance that Mary would kill him in hospital (easy enough for her to find a subtle way, as a nurse). He already knows that Mary will kill him to stop John knowing. So risking his life to get out and stop her urgently, isn't so strange.

He may think he's protecting John too (although I don't think it actually protects John to know. Maybe in the ways you mention, but in other ways it puts him more at risk). But the urgency has to be to save himself, I think. Which makes me feel much better about the whole thing, and I need to rewatch with that in mind (at which point, I'll probably change my mind again! I still feel there's something I'm missing).

Now I undestand what you have meant by that.
Yes, I very much agree.

Harriet · September 8, 2014 7:42 pm

Come on, a little shooting in the chest didn't hurt anyone so far.

I'm saying it again: As we can see, it was John who saved his life. The John he had in his heart, his John.

maryagrawatson · September 8, 2014 7:44 pm

silverblaze wrote:
People, I smell some hindsight bias in this thread.

Indeed.

To me, the absolute most blood chilling scene in all nine episodes is Mary visiting Sherlock in hospital to tell him to keep quiet. He doesn't know anything yet about her, just that she blindsided him, shot him, and that he's so doped up he can barely see, much less defend himself. He needs John to know that Mary did this if only to protect himself.

Mary

Schmiezi · September 8, 2014 7:44 pm

Harriet wrote:
Come on, a little shooting in the chest didn't hurt anyone so far.

I'm saying it again: As we can see, it was John who saved his life. The John he had in his heart, his John.

This. ^^

tobeornot221b · September 8, 2014 7:46 pm

Sherlock's: "...because she saved me." reminds me of a public defender, desperately looking for some plus points for his client in court. A very lame plus point in this case.

Liberty · September 8, 2014 7:51 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
The reason why he helped her, I think, is because she saved him.
I am having problems with seeing Mary's actions as "saving Sherlock". How, by only shooting him a little? I mean, it's a bit like starting a fire and then "saving" everyone by calling the fire department.
Yes, and that's how he knew she was still on his side. What's so mysterious about that? The point is that in the few seconds after he was shot he wouldn't have had time to analyze and gather information, so at that point he still believed John was in danger. Remember that he also didn't know that she was letting him live. That changed after she showed him how well she could shoot, convincing him that it wasn't a mistake that he was still alive. That is why he tells John to trust her later on.

Yes, you're absolutely right about that, thank you! I hadn't thought it through enough. He thinks John is in danger at that point (when he loses consciousness), walking into a room where Mary is armed and shooting. By time he regains consciousness in hospital, that particular risk has gone.

I still find it hard to believe that Sherlock believed Mary didn't shoot to kill (given that he almost died). But I agree that his fear for John in the mind palace is in the moment, not reasoned. As far as he knows Mary is just about to shoot John too. When he's awake and John's alive, he can come to another theory about Mary.

maryagrawatson wrote:
To me, the absolute most blood chilling scene in all nine episodes is Mary visiting Sherlock in hospital to tell him to keep quiet. He doesn't know anything yet about her, just that she blindsided him, shot him, and that he's so doped up he can barely see, much less defend himself. He needs John to know that Mary did this if only to protect himself.

Mary

I find that scene chilling too. It does make me feel that Mary meant to kill him (her regret at having to shoot him in Magnusson's office could well be regret because she believes he's going to die), but whether she did or not, it's a very scary scene. I think she is a serious risk to him, hence the urgency in letting John know.

Last edited by Liberty (September 8, 2014 8:05 pm)

silverblaze · September 8, 2014 8:13 pm

I watched the scene again for this thread and Mary really didn't look so dangerous in it. The gun is no threat because none of them believes for a second that she is going to shoot anyone. As soon as she shoots the coin, she convinces Sherlock that she wouldn't kill him.

SusiGo · September 8, 2014 8:18 pm

Her threats come only after she has shot the coin, not before. And what I really hate about that scene is her contemptuously kicking the coin over to him so he has to bend and pick it up.

nakahara · September 8, 2014 8:27 pm

I too percieved her as chillingly threatening in this scene.
She was beyond desperate now, this was her last chance to stop Sherlock - so her every word sounded like a serious death-threat to me.

SusiGo · September 8, 2014 8:31 pm

nakahara wrote:
I too percieved her as chillingly threatening in this scene.
She was beyond desperate now, this was her last chance to stop Sherlock - so her every word sounded like a serious death-threat to me.

Yes, indeed. She only gets desperate the moment she realises that John has witnessed everything.

tobeornot221b · September 8, 2014 8:35 pm

Imagine she would have shot the "dummy"...

SusiGo · September 8, 2014 8:37 pm

Yes, like in canon.

Zatoichi · September 8, 2014 8:42 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Schmiezi wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
The reason why he helped her, I think, is because she saved him.
I am having problems with seeing Mary's actions as "saving Sherlock". How, by only shooting him a little? I mean, it's a bit like starting a fire and then "saving" everyone by calling the fire department.
Yes, and that's how he knew she was still on his side. What's so mysterious about that?

The problem I have with this theory is that so much could have gone wrong with her plan to "save" him after she shot him. If there had been a traffic jam on the way to CAMs office or back to the hospital, if Sherlock had fallen to the wrong side, if he hadn´t been so determined to save John from danger, he would have been dead. Died from her very own gun. So ensuring there was a tiny chance left for him to survive her assault doesn´t equal "saving" someone in my books..

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 8, 2014 9:11 pm)