Sherlock says she loves John and John says he loves her but Mary never ever says she loves John. Well, these are words. But she does not do much to prove it either whereas Sherlock and John have shown time and again how much they care for each other. 

Why is John angry at Sherlock? Because Sherlock mixes himself in this discussion - does he belong in this discussion? Actually not. This is about John being disspointed in Mary, being lied from Mary, this is about the Watsons.

Sherlock actually doesn't let Mary to say at the beginning anything (he has his reasons, but still this is something between Mary and John , so his mixture in a domestic discussion as just a friend is very inoportunate), he conducts all the discussion. John makes many time clear that this is between him and Mary and doesn't want Sherlock to mix himself but Sherlock get "his way" and continues to answer instead of Mary - so we get also an increase in John's rejection. That is way John reverse his anger on him - Sherlock chooses to be the spokesman of Mary when actually nobody asked for it. Also, let's remember what happened in the underground, when after John tells what he feels about Sherlock, Sherlock laughs - how would you feel when a friend, who knows how difficult such thing for you are, would laugh at you?  And that explains the "is not funny, not this time" line. 

As for the line with the morphine, come one, Sherlock is giving him all the blame impling that he did "everything" to deserve such a wife and a destroyed life, it is his defending and only an empty threat - they are men, they are used to don't say one each other sweet things, they are more rough to each other (and this is the same John very disturbed in the next momets when Sherlock is taken away, how can anyone think that John would get further to really hurt Sherlock?). At the end John capitulates, let his self-defending away and choose what Sherlock want "always your way". I know that Sherlock has a reason to be so blunt to receive a very quick answer (remember the teacher in TGG?) , he has not time and he knows it and he wants to come to the "you can trust Mary" but his way to mix himself in this discussion and to deal with it is still very very hurtfull to John - and that on top to the Mary revelation who destroy John's world. In this discussion John is not only blamed, he is also deserted from both persons he loves. He is left totally alone to come clear with it.

I am amazed how for everybody the pains of a wound seems to be so big and more important compared with the distress of the mind, how most of what Sherlock does is excusable because he is in pain but John who is blinded now by all his feeling still disspointed you that he doesn't control himself "better" and he is not every second in doctor-modus. Doctors are also people who get distressed, who are not machines, who have their lows in life. There is a reason why doctors are advised to don't take their own family as patients. I frankly don't get the dissapointment from you about this matter, neither the expectations that John has to be in every moment of his life perfect towards Sherlock. "yes, he is distracted, but still...." - nope, i don't get it. Perhaps i have more share of dramatic situations in my life and know how real people are affected when they are in shock or distressed... this is not somethig that you can control too much, you normally can control your actions, but your attention for the others and for something else happening next to you not related with your situation is very reduced.

IMO both Sherlock and John are not in the state to have a real discussion at that very moment. It is doomed to be catastrophic from the beginning, so for me actually doesn't change the way i see any of them - they are both in a very particular state of mind which is not to be compared to whom they are  normally.

Sherlock won at the end and brings John to make what he thinks is better, but is was not a nice way for any of them. Actually Mary won, isn't it? And Sherlock wanted that... My bigger question is way Sherlock wanted that... 

But Sherlock doesn't need an excuse for his behaviour.   He's doing it purely for John's benefit, to save him, at great cost to himself. 

Unless ... here's an idea I've been playing with.  I've been really fixed on the notion that everything Sherlock does here is to save John, because saving John is what seems to motivate Sherlock to come back to life in his mind palace.   But, as I've said, it doesn't really make sense - John isn't any safer for knowing (in fact, possibly slightly less safe).  I do get the point about the snake, Nakahara, but I don't know ... what would John inadvertently do if he didn't know that would put him in danger?  Mary would know that he couldn't expose his secret and so wouldn't be a risk to her ... but if he knows, he's a risk, and Mary has to rely on trusting him.

Sherlock is a risk to Mary, particularly when it comes to giving away the secret to John, so she threatens him and seems to be prepared to kill him to stop that happening.  How can Sherlock defend against that?  The only way to take away Mary's power over him is to tell John.   Mary can't threaten him any more once John knows.  She has no reason to kill him, and killing him or hurting him would certainly wreck her relationship with John.  Which is why Sherlock is even safer if she and John are together.  That would answer the question of why Sherlock wanted Mary to win, A Lovely Light. 

So while it's not what we seem to be seeing, given the mind palace, what makes more sense is that Sherlock is saving himself.  I'm not sure why he risks his life to save his life , but maybe it's relative.   As I say, just playing with the idea at the moment.   Partly because I'm struggling with the punishment Sherlock seems to incur for trying to save John (again), and the lack of gratitude (yet again).   I love the idea of selfless, heroic Sherlock, but I don't mind thinking of him actually putting himself first for once. 

I think if Mary really wanted to kill John, she could, whether he knew or not.   But if he didn't know, she'd have no reason to harm him (whereas if he did, it's conceivable that she might at some point have to stop him passing that information on - not saying that she would kill him, but that she'd have a motive). 

Magnusson ends being killed because of what he knows (and how that gives him the power to use that information).  So there's a precedent in the story.  Sherlock almost gets killed for what he knows too.  It does actually seem to be safer not to know, to avoid being a target. 

But anyway, why is it urgent that he warn John?  John isn't at risk, Sherlock is.  Sherlock could wait until he had recovered.  Why on earth would Mary harm John while Sherlock is in hospital? (I thought that Sherlock must know something we don't about why Mary is such an immediate risk to John.  But he doesn't need to know something we don't if he's saving himself - we also know Mary is an immediate risk as she has already tried to kill him and threatened him).  Mary could harm Sherlock while he's in hospital and defenceless, so he absconds and takes control of the situation to make sure she doesn't.

So he invents the surgery excuse for Mary to convince Mary that he's on her side ... so that she knows he's not a threat.   He tries to give her what she wants (John), so that she has no reason to kill him.  Yes, it makes sense that the motivation for coming back from the dead was in that moment.   But later, when he's able to think about, his motivation for the confrontation could well be to save himself, not John.  I agree with that, and I'm thinking it's the explanation that makes most sense.  It puts quite a different slant on the scene for me, and a slightly more positive one, in fact.  I'm not sure I've convinced myself yet, but working on it.

It also makes it easier for me to forgive John, who (if this scenario is the correct one), is being used for Sherlock's purposes - not in a bad way, but still. 

Last edited by Liberty (September 8, 2014 4:48 pm)

nakahara wrote:

A lovely light wrote:

I am amazed how for everybody the pains of a wound seems to be so big and more important compared with the distress of the mind.

It´s because you don´t die in great pains in a few minutes if you have mere distress of the mind, do you?

But a good counterpoint.
 

I agree that physical pain isn´t more distressing or incapacitating than pain of the mind if you compare it like that. The reason why I think Sherlock is more distressed than John in that moment is that he is literally close to the end of his biological life, which is a whole different level of distress than "just" pain.. losing so much blood feels like suffocating and dying of thirst at the same time, so it´s a wonder Sherlock can manage to have coherent thoughts at all. That said I´m aware that my own experiences make me biased in favour of Sherlock, if I had been in a similar existential crisis as John I´d probably feel for him more..

La Jolie wrote:

I still fail to see why the snake would want to bite John. She LOVES him.

I don´t think the danger would come from Mary herself, but from the people who are after her. The family is usually the best way to hurt someone, and if John had lived in blissful ignorance with the child he couldn´t be on guard and take precautions in case they should be attacked.

Also Mary is obviously willing to take extreme measures in order to keep John.. some say it´s a sign for an obsession or fixation on him. I´m not sure about it, but if we imagine it to be true for a moment it´s not far-fetched to think that she would never let him leave her and the violence might turn against him in that case.. "If I can´t have you noone will.." something like that.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 8, 2014 5:33 pm)

But the fact is he didn't die...
And we are way off topic here!

True.

The easiest way to keep John from knowing her secrets would have been to kill him.
Just saying.

Assuming that it's perfectly all right to go off topic as long as everyone agrees that that's what we should do...


I like your analysis of the scene, Lovely Light. Especially the point you make about Sherlock being actually something of an intruder in that scene. Nobody asked him to be Mr Chairman (pun intended) of the debate and I can totally see how John would object to it at first.  And I think we are all expecting too much from *all* the characters involved in the scene, considering their states of body and mind.

Zatoichi wrote:

I don´t think the danger would come from Mary herself, but from the people who are after her. The family is usually the best way to hurt someone, and if John had lived in blissful ignorance with the child he couldn´t be on guard and take precautions in case they should be attacked.

Yes, I can totally see that. John needed to understand why CAM would go after Mary (which he'd certainly planned to do at some point), and why others might want to go after her, too. He couldn't have kept himself, her and the child safe otherwise.

What I have trouble understanding is how some people seem to jump to the conclusion that Mary will or might hurt John himself, not theoretically, some time in the future, but in terms of posing an immediate danger to John. From Sherlock's POV in the mind palace scene, it makes sense to assume that John is in danger - as Silverblaze pointed out, he doesn't know anything about Mary at that point except that she was in trouble with CAM and that she shot him, he doesn't even know yet that she wanted him to survive. But from the POV of the audience, in hindsight, it really doesn't make sense to jump to that conclusion.


Liberty, I agree with you that Sherlock was saving himself as much as he was saving John and Mary by setting the trap and revealing her true self to John. He certainly wasn't safe (again, from his POV) as long as he was the only one who knew who shot him. But if he really wanted to put himself first, why not call Lestrade or Mycroft or whoever else would have had the power to neutralise Mary and place Sherlock under 24/7 protection? He could easily have done that. But he didn't, firstly because he's Sherlock and he always wants to play the game according to his own rules, and secondly also because he didn't want to be safe at the expense of John's utter ruin (which is what exposing Mary to the authorities would have amounted to). So it's really both about himself and John - he's killing two birds with one stone. And because it was also about John he had to do it in this highly dramatic and insanely unhealthy way.



Talking about this scene in 221b, has anyone realised that the three of them are conducting this discussion while Mary (presumably) still has a loaded gun in her pocket/handbag? That took some nerve, didn't it? Almost in the same league as scratching the back of your head with a loaded gun in TGG...


 

Last edited by La Jolie (September 8, 2014 6:58 pm)